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Who Can Blame Them?
the UK has the worst death record in Europe
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You cannot be sure we have 'the worst death record in Europe'. It depends on population size, how the figures were recorded, population density etc. We do tend to be very honest about our death rate I think and maybe other countries are not. I think the reason they won't let us in yet is because we are two weeks behind most European countries as to where we are with the virus, so the delay seems sensible and has absolutely nothing to do with our death rate.
There's nothing sensible about cramming people onto planes to go anywhere at the moment, just for the sake of a holiday in the sun, it should have been banned until at least the end of this year. Come the winter months we will pay for the stupidity. I'm sure another few months of clapping will put it right, not.
We are very over populated so I am not surprised it has been bad. If you think these other European countries such as Italy and Spain have got rid of it, not so sure. They need the tourists back, trouble is if our lot who must have a holiday abroad no matter what go there they may well bring it back with them. Still I believe in Spain you have to wear a mask far more than in this country.
The UK death rate is as inaccurate as everyone elses. We admit to 43,000 but the true figure is about 15,000 high than that.
We don’t have proper tracing so the decision to ease lockdown and permit flying and holidays is a big gamble not supported by the medical evidence. A second wave of increased death rates seems inevitable.
When we can demonstrate that we are in control is when we can think about foreign holidays again.
To contemplate going abroad now is irresponsible and selfish.
We don’t have proper tracing so the decision to ease lockdown and permit flying and holidays is a big gamble not supported by the medical evidence. A second wave of increased death rates seems inevitable.
When we can demonstrate that we are in control is when we can think about foreign holidays again.
To contemplate going abroad now is irresponsible and selfish.
retrocop
I went to the Pub BEFORE lockdown was introduced, and the pubs were open for trade. I did not break any rules and deaths and cases were very low at the time, comparable to regular winter flu.
On that day there were 34 deaths. Now the Government with 100+ deaths a day still say it is now safe to go to the pub, when it is 3 times higher than when I last went.
I have no regrets about meeting my friends as normal on March 18, but I won’t be out on Saturday even though lockdown is eased.
I went to the Pub BEFORE lockdown was introduced, and the pubs were open for trade. I did not break any rules and deaths and cases were very low at the time, comparable to regular winter flu.
On that day there were 34 deaths. Now the Government with 100+ deaths a day still say it is now safe to go to the pub, when it is 3 times higher than when I last went.
I have no regrets about meeting my friends as normal on March 18, but I won’t be out on Saturday even though lockdown is eased.
Of course, for people in the UK it is uncomfortable to be labelled "bad", never mind "the worst" - but before dismissing the statements out of hand, denying and/or in some way trotting out excuses for the outcome, accusing others of doctoring their results, etc., etc. in fact anything but accept that it may well be true, let's just check a few facts out.
The data are all here
https:/
and do what we might, only by one measure on this listing is the UK not quite the worst in Europe: Belgium has a higher figure for deaths per million of the population. On everything else the UK has the worst figures.
Add to this an aspect not listed there (one that to me is particularly relevant and telling) and again the UK comes out badly: In the UK just under 14% of all cases resulted in death - getting the disease is really only seriously bad news if you die from it. Recovery means continuing where you left off, happy days again. France is worst with over 18% as a death rate (Belgium over 15%, Italy 14%) but that is little consolation when you consider that one European country has achieved a just over 0.5% death rate and others also far, far better than the UK. If the UK were the best then (proportionately at 0.5%) 42,000 people here would still be alive as opposed to dead. This is nothing to be proud of, to clap for or in any way to see but as an awful tragedy. This has nothing to do with population density, type of accommodation or any such thing - it is the failure of the health system to keep sick people alive. The only reason people have died at a higher rate in the UK than elsewhere is because they were not saved while people elsewhere also ill of Covid 19 were saved. British people are no more naturally doomed to die than foreigners, at least when one assumes they receive the same level/quality of medical care.
Suggestions that figures issued by other countries are less reliable than the British ones are not worth taking seriously, there has been enough confusion over the UK set already. Also, to say that the UK was worse placed for being an island would be nonsense, silly to suggest that it was handicapped because it has strong, long established universities and research establishments plus industry capable of producing everything needed to deal with the pandemic. Nobody would seriously suggest the UK lacks qualified personnel to turn to or bodies to mobilise in general or that distances to health care facilities are too great. No, the UK should have been able at least to be mediocre at this.
The European country which did so well (0.5% death rate) is also an island, has very few resources relevant to dealing with the crisis, must import everything for dealing with the pandemic and only has a small number of well qualified personnel to call on. Yet, after a steep initial rise, they eliminated the curve in nine weeks (no flattening, just sharply up and sharply down). The key is that they were prepared, are well organised, focussed and united when applying effective measures.
No, there is no escaping it, the UK now really should take a long hard look in the mirror and question whether it still qualifies for its favourite self-congratulatory, self-awarded label: First Class, World's Best, World Beating, etc. Admitting reality would not be anti-British, denying it would amount to continuing to do gross anti-British harm to British hopes of improving and crawling up from being at the bottom of the class. I know of people abroad watching the UK being their own worst enemy with a mixture of astonishment and sadness (yes, some ridicule) - they would in fact be pleased, impressed even, to see the UK do something rather than pretend they don't need to and it was all inevitable and as good as could have been hoped for.
The data are all here
https:/
and do what we might, only by one measure on this listing is the UK not quite the worst in Europe: Belgium has a higher figure for deaths per million of the population. On everything else the UK has the worst figures.
Add to this an aspect not listed there (one that to me is particularly relevant and telling) and again the UK comes out badly: In the UK just under 14% of all cases resulted in death - getting the disease is really only seriously bad news if you die from it. Recovery means continuing where you left off, happy days again. France is worst with over 18% as a death rate (Belgium over 15%, Italy 14%) but that is little consolation when you consider that one European country has achieved a just over 0.5% death rate and others also far, far better than the UK. If the UK were the best then (proportionately at 0.5%) 42,000 people here would still be alive as opposed to dead. This is nothing to be proud of, to clap for or in any way to see but as an awful tragedy. This has nothing to do with population density, type of accommodation or any such thing - it is the failure of the health system to keep sick people alive. The only reason people have died at a higher rate in the UK than elsewhere is because they were not saved while people elsewhere also ill of Covid 19 were saved. British people are no more naturally doomed to die than foreigners, at least when one assumes they receive the same level/quality of medical care.
Suggestions that figures issued by other countries are less reliable than the British ones are not worth taking seriously, there has been enough confusion over the UK set already. Also, to say that the UK was worse placed for being an island would be nonsense, silly to suggest that it was handicapped because it has strong, long established universities and research establishments plus industry capable of producing everything needed to deal with the pandemic. Nobody would seriously suggest the UK lacks qualified personnel to turn to or bodies to mobilise in general or that distances to health care facilities are too great. No, the UK should have been able at least to be mediocre at this.
The European country which did so well (0.5% death rate) is also an island, has very few resources relevant to dealing with the crisis, must import everything for dealing with the pandemic and only has a small number of well qualified personnel to call on. Yet, after a steep initial rise, they eliminated the curve in nine weeks (no flattening, just sharply up and sharply down). The key is that they were prepared, are well organised, focussed and united when applying effective measures.
No, there is no escaping it, the UK now really should take a long hard look in the mirror and question whether it still qualifies for its favourite self-congratulatory, self-awarded label: First Class, World's Best, World Beating, etc. Admitting reality would not be anti-British, denying it would amount to continuing to do gross anti-British harm to British hopes of improving and crawling up from being at the bottom of the class. I know of people abroad watching the UK being their own worst enemy with a mixture of astonishment and sadness (yes, some ridicule) - they would in fact be pleased, impressed even, to see the UK do something rather than pretend they don't need to and it was all inevitable and as good as could have been hoped for.
"I went to the Pub BEFORE lockdown was introduced, and the pubs were open for trade. I did not break any rules and deaths and cases were very low at the time, comparable to regular winter flu.
On that day there were 34 deaths. Now the Government with 100+ deaths a day still say it is now safe to go to the pub, when it is 3 times higher than when I last went. " - gawd you are dense sometimes gromit. I don't know where to start explaining this!
On that day there were 34 deaths. Now the Government with 100+ deaths a day still say it is now safe to go to the pub, when it is 3 times higher than when I last went. " - gawd you are dense sometimes gromit. I don't know where to start explaining this!
Tora,
The Government advised against non essential travel on 16 March and advised against going to restaurants, cinemas and pubs. At that point it was a recommendation, not compulsory, and not lockdown. Meanwhile the Cheltenham festival went ahead, and Liverpool entertain 3000 Spanish supporters at Anfield. On 19 March I wrote this post.
// I have not been complying with the advice.
I work in a store and we probably get 5000 shoppers a day through the doors, so avoiding 20 mates in the pub doesn’t make sense.
Thankfully, every one in my little group of about eight is still coming out. If we don’t, then our favourite bars will be out of business in weeks, gone forever. //
Sadly that last bit is now inevitable.
The Government advised against non essential travel on 16 March and advised against going to restaurants, cinemas and pubs. At that point it was a recommendation, not compulsory, and not lockdown. Meanwhile the Cheltenham festival went ahead, and Liverpool entertain 3000 Spanish supporters at Anfield. On 19 March I wrote this post.
// I have not been complying with the advice.
I work in a store and we probably get 5000 shoppers a day through the doors, so avoiding 20 mates in the pub doesn’t make sense.
Thankfully, every one in my little group of about eight is still coming out. If we don’t, then our favourite bars will be out of business in weeks, gone forever. //
Sadly that last bit is now inevitable.
//…just for the sake of a holiday in the sun, it should have been banned until at least the end of this year.//
Well, teacake, if you want to see the end of the travel industry in Europe you could not have devised a better scheme. If the travel business remains closed until the end of the year, nobody will be going anywhere for a very long time.
//Now the Government with 100+ deaths a day still say it is now safe to go to the pub, when it is 3 times higher than when I last went. //
25 deaths today, Gromit (though it is Monday, I grant you).
//In the UK just under 14% of all cases resulted in death//
That is very misleading and very alarmist, Karl. 14% of confirmed cases resulted in death. It is estimated that the total number of cases may be somewhere between 10 and fifty times the number confirmed. Mrs NJ and I both believe we may have had it. Countless numbers of people may have contracted it and displayed no symptoms whatsoever. Bandying such highly misleading and alarmist figures around, suggesting that if you catch the disease there is a one in seven chance of death, helps to explain why so many people remain scared to step out of their front door.
//The only reason people have died at a higher rate in the UK than elsewhere is because they were not saved while people elsewhere also ill of Covid 19 were saved. //
I know two people who have died with Covid on their death certificate. Firstly I doubt that either of them had it at all but more importantly neither would have survived whatever care they had. One was 95 and the other was told at Christmas that she was unlikely to survive much beyond May. But both number among the 43k Covid deaths.
This has been the first time that a major pandemic has been dealt with by means of a global economic shutdown. And it’s been a disaster with the most serious symptoms of the “cure” yet to manifest themselves.
Well, teacake, if you want to see the end of the travel industry in Europe you could not have devised a better scheme. If the travel business remains closed until the end of the year, nobody will be going anywhere for a very long time.
//Now the Government with 100+ deaths a day still say it is now safe to go to the pub, when it is 3 times higher than when I last went. //
25 deaths today, Gromit (though it is Monday, I grant you).
//In the UK just under 14% of all cases resulted in death//
That is very misleading and very alarmist, Karl. 14% of confirmed cases resulted in death. It is estimated that the total number of cases may be somewhere between 10 and fifty times the number confirmed. Mrs NJ and I both believe we may have had it. Countless numbers of people may have contracted it and displayed no symptoms whatsoever. Bandying such highly misleading and alarmist figures around, suggesting that if you catch the disease there is a one in seven chance of death, helps to explain why so many people remain scared to step out of their front door.
//The only reason people have died at a higher rate in the UK than elsewhere is because they were not saved while people elsewhere also ill of Covid 19 were saved. //
I know two people who have died with Covid on their death certificate. Firstly I doubt that either of them had it at all but more importantly neither would have survived whatever care they had. One was 95 and the other was told at Christmas that she was unlikely to survive much beyond May. But both number among the 43k Covid deaths.
This has been the first time that a major pandemic has been dealt with by means of a global economic shutdown. And it’s been a disaster with the most serious symptoms of the “cure” yet to manifest themselves.
One could be forgiven for thinking that no right-thinking person would have put up with the scale of disruption to life without the scariest possible numbers being pushed relentlessly all the time on all channels.
Including 'with' alongside 'of' COVID 19 achieved just that with little or no distinction between the two.
That's my thought and I'm sticking with it.
Including 'with' alongside 'of' COVID 19 achieved just that with little or no distinction between the two.
That's my thought and I'm sticking with it.
If it's instilled fear you're talking about, take a look at this:
https:/
It is a paper entitled "Options for increasing adherence to social distancing measures" produced by SAGE’s behavioural science sub-group, for discussion at SAGE #18 on 23rd March. To save you wading through it (it's not an easy red) here's one passage that caught my eye:
"The perceived level of personal threat needs to be increased among those who are complacent, using hard-hitting emotional messaging. To be effective this must also empower people by making clear the actions they can take to reduce the threat."
In short, scare witless those who are not too fussed by increasing the perceived threat (nothing about the actual threat) by "emotional messaging". So we have a group of "behavioural scientists" advising the government to scare the population into compliance. It's not pretty reading and the troubling thing is that their plan succeeded.
https:/
It is a paper entitled "Options for increasing adherence to social distancing measures" produced by SAGE’s behavioural science sub-group, for discussion at SAGE #18 on 23rd March. To save you wading through it (it's not an easy red) here's one passage that caught my eye:
"The perceived level of personal threat needs to be increased among those who are complacent, using hard-hitting emotional messaging. To be effective this must also empower people by making clear the actions they can take to reduce the threat."
In short, scare witless those who are not too fussed by increasing the perceived threat (nothing about the actual threat) by "emotional messaging". So we have a group of "behavioural scientists" advising the government to scare the population into compliance. It's not pretty reading and the troubling thing is that their plan succeeded.
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