Bullying in the army. Not

[Ward-Minter]

Am I alone in thinking there is nothing wrong with the recent footage. I can tell you stories that will make it look like childs play.

Any ex servicemen out there who agree. Methinks it's just the politically correct morons harping on again!!

[cassimer]

I have taken part in several military initiation ceremonies... but nothing ever like this. I think that anything that ends up with a guy being knocked unconcious cannot be acceptable in any way. I dont think this is anything to do with political correctness gone mad - its just plain wrong. Im sure worse has happened in the past, but that doesnt excuse it. I wouldnt let it happen under my command.

[kick3m0n]

I can't watch the footage, it actually makes me feel sick. I'm no wuss bag but oh my god, it turns my stomach. It looks as if they guy who's knocked unconscious is actually trying to stop fighting, and pleads with his opponent to stop (you see him take his face in his hands and speak to him). For this, he gets kicked in the face by the "surgeon". Truly horrific. The fact that you could tell stories that makes this look like childsplay gives me the creeps frankly Ward-minter - you are not a guy I'd like to get to know. I won't pretend to understand such inititation ceremonies (tho I know servicemen who have gone through these things), but such video does make you believe that bullying and unneccessary violence in the armed forces is commonplace. It's a fine line between being brave enough to lay your life on the line for your country and it's people, and just being an ******** who likes power and violence. The latter is certainly how the NCO (surgeon) comes across in this video. For the record, the 2 ex servicemen I have spoken to since watching this footage are agreed this is absolutely unacceptable, but maybe we're all just "politically correct morons harping on again".

[kick3m0n]

and in repsonse to your apparent question in the first line of your post:

I sincerely hope so.

[Ward-Minter]

Christ what a bunch of girls' blouses. It was male bonding, simple as that. Don't know what Regiment were under your command cassimer but what did they fightthe war with, a spoon or a pile of blankets??

Come on, no disrespect, they are/were Royal Marines. An elite unit drawn from HM forces who are often the first to enter ememy territory. They face real horrors in battle with real bullets and real people who want to kill them. Therefore this was not only male bonding it was valuable training (bar all that naked busisness tho!).

I joined in 1989 and can assure you if I started harping on about bullying I would be out on a limb. Likewise when I made Captain, if one of my unit came complaining to me that they were being bullied, as in the footage, I would show them what bullying really meant. That's the whole point, not one Marine, even the chap who was knocked out, has made a complaint. I imagine the footage has come from a disgruntled soldier after a few bob.

Jesus, these men have to take orders to kill people, maybe even kids if they have to. If discipline is not instilled out of battle, then if they disobey within the remit of an actual battle we are all doomed.

We have the best armed services in the world and it is because they are ultimately as tough as nails. It is training like this what makes them.

Does anybody know what our beloved Gurkhas go through just to pass the recruitment test!!!!!!!!

[jno]

all sounds like diverted homosexual activity to me (or 'male bonding' if you prefer). It's the only accepted way to get physical with your 'mates', I guess.

[jake-the-peg]

It looks like an extreme form of "milling" to me.

The naked element seems a bit suspect - Do Royal Marine Commandos fight in the nude a lot?

The question that needs answering is exactly how much autonomy do individual regiments have in devising their own "training" methods and whether that autonomy is appropriate.

It appears that there are little if any controls on training methods - is there anything to prevent them from torturing recruits with electric shocks for example? Other than common sense I mean

After all in an organisation that trains people to obey orders without question you cannot rely too heavily on common sense.

[kick3m0n]

I dont' quite understand how fighting naked against your comrades and getting knocked unconscious by an NCO ccan possibly constitute "bonding". How warped is that? As pointed out, do you fight in the nude perhaps? Kinky, but ineffective I'd think. Also suprising given all the homophobic hoo-haa about gays in the services. Yes, soldiers must be able and willing to kill the enemy, those who would attack you, but why would it be helpful in training to have you turn on your comrades? Not very "team" surely.

And regardless of the merits or otherwise of this activity in the video, if a soldier wanted to quit, how is knocking him unconscious going to help at all???

I know you're going to trot out the same old same old that pro fox hunters etc do....ie that we, the British public do not really understand what's going on here and how necessary it is, but Ward-minter, no matter how grateful we are for what our armed services do for our country, I don't think the majority of the public will be anything less than shocked and appalled by this video.

As for no one complaining, many would say that is one of the major issues within the armed forces today. It closes ranks ('scuse the opun) at every opportunity and likes to deal with problems within it's own perimeters. Sadly, in cases such as Deepcut Barracks, this proves to be nothing mroe than a sham, which raises more questions than answers, and gives no one (least of all grieving parents) any real answers.

I think it's high time the armed forces were as transparent, open to scrutiny and answerable to the public as any other major organistations.

[gary baldy]

I am the biggest wuss in the world but i am glad this sort of thing goes on. These fellas have to go into war and to be frank you dont want wusses like me up front - you want rock hard killing machines who have no problem getting their heads kicked in whilst naked. We have arguably the best army in the world and if is what it takes then perhaps the ends justify the means.

[kick3m0n]

I can't believe someone trotted out "the ends justify the means" as an argument. Good grief, that is a highly subjective, primtive and dangerous line of thought surely? Does that apply even if, as happens in some cases, bullied recruits kill themselves? YES, I understand that people in all walks of life crack under pressure and commit suicide, but bullying in any other profession is unacceptable, despite these people having to face death, work as a team, rely heavily on each other in life threatening situations.

Can I just clarify my objection to the video. It's not the nude fighting that bothers me - if this is how they initiate new recruits and get their kicks (sorry, poor choice of phrase) then OK. What bothers me is the NCOs response to a man who clearly wants to stop fighting. OK, so perhaps this makes him a "woose" and therefore he's not up to being a Marine. Fine - take him to one side and show him the way home. DO NOT kick him unconscious!! Good grief, that is barbaric. If we'd seen a similar video, only featuring pre-Saddam Iraqis, instead of UK troops, it would have been portrayed in the media as yet another abuse of power, another reason why this regime had to be stopped and another reason why our troops should be there.

[Chessman]

W-M, as an ex soldier, vastly travelled, i've been to Gurkha cerimonies, and belive me, they are tough, but they have nothing like this, now its out, I hope its stopped forthwith.

[Englishbird]

my tuppenceworth is that as long as there is a safe environment for people to report incidence's they are directly involved in if they see fit, then other people should not condemn or ban something they can't fully understand because they were not there.

My male colleagues at a previous job used to change my screen saver to porn whilst i was at lunch, but it was only for a laugh, I also get countless sexist comments whilst working behind the bar - why should other people get involved and say that it is wrong, when it doesn't bother me and i'm the one it's aimed at?

I know nothing about the armed forces, and with no disrespect, am really not that interested, but I do object to 'the powers that be' telling us all what we can and can't do - what happened to personal responsibility? These reports will have been hammed up by the press, I would suggest leaving the people directly involved to sort it out amongst themselves. If someone feels bullied, then they have every right to come forth and say so, but outsiders shouldn't bowl on in there and tell him that he's being bullied.

[mata hari]

For God's sake lads, what's happening here? lets have a bit of decorum in the Forces. Why these childish rituals occur beats me! (no pun intended!) Men went into the first and second world wars with only a few weeks training, and with practically no protection, - they did their duty against al odds I'm sure, without all this nonsense during training.

A soldiers life must be hard enough, without having to put up with these boarding school antics. Surely the only thing it teaches is "bully or be bullied"

The whole worlds going mad, I tell you! Mad!

[stevie21]

I've not seen the video - was it on telly?

[Oneeyedvic]

Personal Opinion:

I think that anyone who enters the armed services has a low intelligence (more so the grunts than the officers).

Most reasonable, well adjusted and intelligent people will not take an order from others without question. Most have a sense of morality and common sense. Whilst they will have a certain bond or friendship with people, they will rarely put their lives on the line for anyone bar their family.

The people who join the armed forces are there for really one reason and one reason only - to kill or be killed. Most ordinary people will not be able to go and fight in a war - I know I certainly wouldn't.

The point of this form of 'training' or 'bonding' or wahtever you want to call it is simple. It is brainwashing. The principle behind it that each man will trust implicity his comrades. This is done by systematicaly humiliating and bullying someone until they break - and then giving them belief in themselves and their comrades.

Whislt I find it repugnant, I will be the first to agree that we have one of the best army's in the world.

Got to be honest - whilst I think it is awful, I am unsure as to if it should be stopped or not.

However,I do think that joining hte armed forces should not be glamourised as it is with current advertising and that people should be able to quit the army any time they want if they are being bullied.

[mimififi]

If men from the same regiment who are supposed to hold each others' lives in their hands can do this sort of thing to each other, then it is little wonder that we have seen similar service men do the horrible things they did to the prisoners of war in Iraq this year. They seem to be so far over the line that the line is way off and not even visible.

I fail to see how this is bonding. Surely the mere fact that they train together, eat together, shower together, go on marches or whatever together, would mean that they had already bonded. This is gratuitous violence, feeding their passion for aggression and power, and frankly, I know servicemen who would be ashamed of these men. They are the ones giving servicemen a bad name. It is a pity we don't see regular footage of all the admirable things our servicemen do for us.

These are the rogues of the profession, and frankly I resent the publicity and the 'fame' they have been awarded with this, blatantly, poor behaviour.

Even if they have earned the right to wear their stripes, they don't deserve them when behaving like that.

Maybe if you think this is acceptable, even if these men "eat their breakfast 100yards from enemy guns" even if you think this kind of 'code' is reasonable, maybe it's you who "can't handle the truth."

[gary baldy]

I didnt want to be so crass and say it my previous post but lets face it we dont want graphic designers and marketing consultants fighting our wars - we want people with enough intelligence to aim a gun and not much else (not saying graphic designers and marketing consultants are clever- just not fighting material).
I wonder if all those moaning about 'barbaric' and 'bullying' would be as prepared to kill and be killed as these Marines are. If these were conscripted squaddies then it might be unacceptable but anyone willingly signing up for the Marines and expecting an easy ride is naive to say the least.
To drag WW2 into the argument is misguided. Most of those going off to war were ill suited and ill trained to do so and although great bravery was shown by all those involved it was in the face of adversity and not a career choice.

[B00]

I really dont see anything wrong with them doing the naked fights, as long as if it's controlled and monitored. What is repugnant is the way the guy was kicked in the face into unconciousness by his so called superior.....THAT is the matter which should be dealt with.

[kick3m0n]

BOO, I am so pleased that someone thinks the same as me. It's the act of violence by a senior against a subordinate that I find disgusting, the naked fighting doesn't bother me at all.

Stevie21 - check out Sky News...they were showing the full video last night and this morning. The still photos in the paper just don't capture the full horror. Englishbird - have you seen the video? nothing "hammed up" about it, just clear pictures showing a man being kicked unconscious.

[Drusilla]

I can understand the fighting and remember seeing something similar in a programme about the Paras, where the objective was to keep the lads fighting, even when they were exhausted and felt defeated.
I remember soldiers who had obviously been beaten in the boxing match being highly praised because they kept going and didn't give up.
As for the face kicking by an NCO, it showed a lack of restraint on his part and reflects badly on his own ability to stay in control of himself in a tense and difficult situation.
With regards the lack of clothing, that was just bizarre and seemed somewhat homo-erotic to me. Even my nine year old daughter asked if they were gay soldiers.

[Ward-Minter]

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/story_pages/news/news1.shtml

you can download the "incident" here. My God it is about as horrific as "Lassie Come Home"