Protests Against Covid Restrictions In Spain And Italy

[naomi24]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/27/global-coronavirus-report-italian-police-use-tear-gas-to-disperse-anti-lockdown-rally

Not a pretty sight but is it any surprise that people are becoming thoroughly fed up with it all?

[Zacs-Master]

‘ are all neglected whilst hospital beds lie empty’

I can assure you there are no hospital beds in any major city lying empty. Wards are being quickly dedicated to COVID patients and, as you correctly state, this is to the detriment of other severe cases / illnesses.

[Peter Pedant]

// So you could argue (speciously, but you could) that you might expect to live longer if you caught Covid.//

o god this is dumb stuff

The average life expectancy in the United States is 9.1 years for 80-year-old white women and 7.0 years for 80-year-old white men.

oh it isnt gonna be much different in the UK

and we really should know that the longer we live -the longer we live. Newton did 1670- ( asked to compile the first life tables).
The reason is - the NJ reason - those who are gonna die have already done so and that leaves a hardier subset to live longer

give em hell Jim

[Khandro]

There is without doubt more deaths are being incurred by boredom of covid-19 than by the disease itself.

Chaps: let's all die if we have to, like real men.

[Zacs-Master]

Aaaaaargh. Slump.

[New Judge]

//I can assure you there are no hospital beds in any major city lying empty//

I live in a major city. As of last Tuesday week (20th) four out of five wards of my local hospital (which is termed a "major acute district general hospital") were empty and unused. It has 525 beds of which only 135 were available for use. I know this because I know an administrator who works there and I asked him (he was "not really supposed" to tell me and I'm not surpeised). My cousin is the senior nursing manager ("matron") in a large West Country hospital. She reported a similar situation when I last spoke to her (about three weeks ago). Things may have changed in the last week in my local hospital but I doubt they have changed significantly.

[bobbinwales]

the judge is delusioned if he thinks making a trivial point about being able to buy Private Eye but not socks in Wales is clever / funny but deaths of thousands isnt important because theyd die anyway soon. Your just wrong. As Peter Peddant explains whats importent is when we GET to 82 we use to be able to expect on averege to live another 6-7 years. So dying suddenly of Covid at 82 which is a fair bet if you catch it is a big deal to those who die and those who had to treat them and family who after bury them.

Peopel are frustrated at the lockdown, thats understanderable, and maybe in the end we after be open and say the economy is more important than treating corona, but its causing some peopel to stop thinking logical now. There blaming lockdowns for deaths of peopel from canceled cancer treatment and for canceled routine ops etc.

The lockdowns are about reducing contacts, rule of 6, closing drinking pubs early or all day like here, stopping gatherings like football crowds, stopping house partys, closing some shops in Wales, no long distance travel, wearing masks in shops, ect to save lives and protect are NHS. The rules and laws and guidance say nothing about not treating patients, thats a decision hospitals /PHE/PHE make because there currantly or expectant to be snowed under with Corona and soon winter flu . Stopping lockdowns by letting peopel do what they want will clearly mean more cases in hospital unless we tell them to die of corona untreated at home and more corona beds taken in hospital mean more deaths and less doctors and beds for less urgent cancer and other treatments. Its so obvious a dont know why the judge ect are in affect arguing for more corona cases which is what will happen if we left peopel to make there choices. In an ideal world we'd treat everyone urgent but we dont have anywhere near enough doctors and nurses so we need to keep corona down much lower to stop hospitals being overran and we after unfortunateley priorityse admissions/treatments. Obvious really if you think about it.

Teabrake rant over.

[New Judge]

//the judge is delusioned if he thinks making a trivial point about being able to buy Private Eye but not socks in Wales is clever / funny //

It’s neither. It simply demonstrates how ridiculous the regulations are.

//..but deaths of thousands isnt important because theyd die anyway soon.//

I didn’t say they weren’t important. I said they were inevitable at some point – not quite the same thing at all.

//As Peter Peddant explains whats importent is when we GET to 82 we use to be able to expect on average to live another 6-7 years.//

You never have been able to expect such a thing and you can’t now. Covid has made no difference to that (but see below**). If 82 is the average life expectancy in the UK some people will live beyond that age, some die before that age. You could no more “expect” to live another seven years than you would “expect” to die at 75. It’s purely a mathematical average. **In fact, since the average age of those dying from Covid is greater than the overall average age at death, those dying from Covid are actually increasing the overall life expectancy. Quite why you think Covid has changed the average life expectancy only you know, but there’s no basis for it. If you’re going to listen to Peter Pedant you need to be careful what you choose to listen to.

//There blaming lockdowns for deaths of peopel from canceled cancer treatment and for canceled routine ops etc.//

They are doing so because it’s true. You can read the numbers anywhere you like and many medical people are supporting that contention. The NHS is not operating anywhere near normally – unless you have Covid.

//The rules and laws and guidance say nothing about not treating patients, thats a decision hospitals /PHE/PHE make because there currantly or expectant to be snowed under with Corona and soon winter flu .//

But they’ve been operating like that all through the summer. They did not come close to being overwhelmed in April (when there were three times as many daily admissions and four times the number of Covid patients in hospital as there are currently). And during the summer the numbers were minimal But still other patients were being neglected.

I’m afraid your logic defeats mine but I hope you enjoyed your tea!
:-)

[Khandro]

Where is the evidence as to the efficacy of regulations already imposed. Where is the evidence that mandatory mask-wearing, curfews or restrictions on family gatherings actually work if the contagion is still spreading, where is the cost to benefit analysis that pits the measures taken to arrest the march of coronavirus against the collateral damage they are causing to the economy, mental well‑being and other health conditions, let alone the futures of our children ?

[Zacs-Master]

My statement of the situation regarding hospital beds also comes from a reliable source, NJ. Which major city are you talking about?

[New Judge]

//Which major city are you talking about?//

The one I live in (or rather on the edge of) - which I would never divulge on an internet forum.

[teacake44]

Can't think of any reason someone would want to track you down NJ, in any case, not much chance of doing so in London. ;0)

[New Judge]

Just as a taster, Zacs, here's some quick figures for NHS bed occupancy in England. Between Q1 2017/18 and Q4 2019/20 (i.e up to March 20) the average bed occupancy in England was 113,200. It varied by no more than about 2,000 either way and there were still about 15,000 spare beds during most of that time. In Q1 2020/21 (i.e. April to June this year) occupancy had dropped to 76,200 - a drop of 37,000 or just about a third. I don't have the figures beyond that but I have no doubt that in Q2 they will have dropped considerably further.

This means that during the worst of the earlier phase of the pandemic there were some 52,000 spare beds available in England alone and I don't doubt that figure increased considerably over the summer. The NHS has been running a skeleton service during the last six months with virtually all routine procedures postponed. For many patients those postponements might as well have been cancellations.

[teacake44]

The government will do what ever it takes to give the impression that the NHS is working well/ coping. What you will never find out is how many have died at home with or without covid, due to local doctors that wont see you, and the 111 number that will tell you to take a paracetamol.