What's Labour's Answer To The Catastrophe That Is Devolution?

[ToraToraTora]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55397201
yep you've guessed it, more devolution. Many many more layers of politicians and officials bloating the public sector, bossing us about at every level. Gawd elp us, that's all we need! As TGL once said, the state should be as small as possible, looks like Steer Calmer has other ideas. Madness?

[ichkeria]

Indeed jim.

People get very touchy about this: to my mind it implies a lack of confidence in ones identity rarther than the opposite

[ichkeria]

"What a spiteful and nasty question khandro what does anyone's family have to do with it?
"

It's not the first time he's done it and it won't be the last.
It just makes him look silly

[Untitled]

What a shameful way to behave.

[naomi24]

Ich, //Trade deals involve losing control of something in return for something.//

What utter garbage. Trade deals must be beneficial to all involved. What do you expect the EU to lose from a trade deal with the UK?

[jim360]

When the UK was a member of the EU, the EU27 accepted that the UK had veto rights over eg European Council business, and accepted various concessions eg the rebate that Thatcher negotiated. More concretely, they accepted that the UK had some influence over goods standards.

All of those are concessions.

[naomi24]

And all ultimately to their benefit. The time is long past since I took the word of vocal Remainers seriously.

[jim360]

How is handing the UK a rebate of a few billion pounds a year "to their benefit"? How is allowing the UK a veto to their benefit? In both cases this took away from the absolute control the EU27 had, ie took away from any notion of absolute sovereignty.

I mean, yes, the EU and the UK were both better off together than apart, but at this point you're campaigning to remain or rejoin...

[Khandro]

untitled: //What a spiteful and nasty question khandro what does anyone's family have to do with it?//

If generations have shed blood for it, it means a great deal. The fact that the question rises your hackles makes me also wonder about you.

[naomi24]

//the EU and the UK were both better off together than apart//

The EU was certainly better off with us in tow - and they know it!

//at this point you're campaigning to remain or rejoin...//

What?

[jim360]

I don't think the EU's ever pretended otherwise -- except that we weren't "in tow" more than any other member State (rather less, in fact, since we didn't join the Euro, or the Schengen area, etc etc).

[Old_Geezer]

More devolution enlarges any split between the countries of the Union; it doesn't save it. The only thing that saves it, if it needs saving, is folk from all corners of the Union supporting it and accepting that we are one nation and the stronger for it. One might be better taking powers back, were it possible. But possibly examining local responsibilities to ensure they are in good balance.

[ToraToraTora]

we seem to have morphed into an EUSSR discussion. All what do we think about the OP?

[Old_Geezer]

Unsure how this drifted to the EU, but it's a large dissimilar area and not satisfactory as a single nation. Unsure how the US manage it but elsewhere it requires power and control of the people to force such a large unwieldy block to remain as if they were one.

[jim360]

Agreed, wandered off-topic.

To be honest I'm not sure where I stand on devolution, but it's at least clear that we haven't really decided what we even want from it yet. But there's no way you can plausibly reverse the devolution from before without causing anger -- few moves backwards are ever popular -- so it's better to find a way of reforming the present system to make it work, eg by more clearly defining the powers of the Welsh Assembly etc.

[naomi24]

Ditch the jimnastics, Jim, and tell me what you meant by this. //

//at this point you're campaigning to remain or rejoin...//

TTT, I wouldn't trust Starmer - whatever he said. A wolf in sheep's clothing.

[jim360]

I can't ditch something I was never doing in the first place.

[naomi24]

Why don't you answer the question?

[jim360]

I didn't really mean anything by it much.

[naomi24]

Hmmm....

[Khandro]

jim //I don't think the EU's ever pretended otherwise -- except that we weren't "in tow" more than any other member State (rather less, in fact, since we didn't join the Euro, or the Schengen area, etc etc).//

There's the small matter of 9 billion p.a. net contribution you may be overlooking, compared to:

'The most up-to-date statistics (as of July 2016) Poland received €17.436 billion from the EU whilst only contributing €3.526 billion.'