Nightingale Closures

[brainiac]

We're told that there are now more people in hospital with Covid-19 than at the peak in April, so why on earth are they dismantling the Nightingale hospitals that were created at great cost? If it's lack of staff (as is said), then why a lack of staff now, and not when they were created?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9095087/Londons-Nightingale-hospital-quietly-broken-arent-medics.html

[douglas9401]

It was to be seen as decisive action at the time.
You're not supposed to notice the utter futility and incompetence of it all just get out there and clap.

[allenlondon]

Because there aren’t any STAFF!

There aren’t enough nurses, orderlies, doctors, there never were.

What a bleedin’ farce.

[brainiac]

But as I said: why a lack of staff now and not when they were first set up? Was adequate staffing not considered before they were given the go-ahead?

[New Judge]

//Was adequate staffing not considered before they were given the go-ahead?//

It almost certainly was. But there cannot be too many people in this country who realise that the NHS is chronically short of medics and has been for donkeys' years. Plenty of directors, managers and assorted bean counters but a bit light on ancillary staff such as doctors and nurses.

But of course had the Nightingale exhibition centres not been constructed the Prime Minister could not have opened the one in London with all the pomp and pageantry the occasion deserved.

[AuntPollyGrey]

Surely there would be enough staff if they involved the Royal Army Medical Corps and offered jobs to student nurses and retired nurses/doctors?

[woofgang]

I suspect that, as they were built to be only for ventilated patients in great need, the plan would have been to pull staff with the right skills in from hospitals and to backfill with volunteers, I also suspect that staffing levels would have been less that are usually thought to be needed for ventilated patients. Practices which may be necessary in great national extremis are not acceptable in other situations. I think that we should all be deeply grateful that they were never needed.

[pixie374]

There's a lack of staff at the best of times, and when you consider illness, isolation times etc, it hasn't helped. You need quite a few and experienced people with ventilated patients, I just hope we don't need them in future.

[Canary42]

NHS is vastly under-sourced especially after thousands left the country because of bungling Boris's beloved Brexit.

[allenlondon]

They were a publicity stunt.

Look at us, we can build a huge hospital in weeks!

Shame they couldn’t provide the skilled nurses to staff them.

[minesapint]

I doubt it AuntPollyGrey. It seems that doctors who have applied to assist in this crisis have had to complete a form online over 20 pages long asking amongst other stuff, their awareness of child abuse, safeguarding, racial issues and a whole host of other relatively spurious subjects. They also seem to need to provide evidence that they have some skill in these matters. There was a letter from one such retired doctor in yesterday's Daily Telegraph.
Student nurses don't have the time to divert their attention elsewhere during their degree course nowadays - my daughter is a qualified midwife in her twenties and this is the reality. The student grants they receive to pay to their university is conditional on them spending the the vast majority of their time either studying or on placement at a hospital. They cannot assist elsewhere under current legislation. Who would want to take time out from such a course only to have it added on via extra years of study?
The RAMC is there to be deployed predominantly abroad, are specialists in that work and every man jack of them is needed somewhere in the world. A good proportion of them are never even in the UK most of the time.

[malagabob]

As allenlondon says,a PR stunt.

[Maydup]

In addition to the under staffing, there is less of an apetite to volunteer now. Back in the spring people were pulling together to help the NHS. Retired people were going back to work and helping to back fill the staffing shortages, furloughed people and the unemployed were volunteering, and money was being raised. Sadly that wasnt sustainable, energy and enthusiasm is depleted, and without that support for the regular health service, the Nightingales cannot operate as specialist units.

[AuntPollyGrey]

minesapint -thanks for the very informative reply.

[Peter Pedant]

Yeah The RAMC doesnt have enough to run diddly squat

well what about the QARANCS someone will brightly ask

Nightingales were built when it was thought that a few days vent was all that was necessarily to tide them over for a few weeks
The reality was 28 d ventilation, high mortality 15% that we dont see now 0.3% and unsuspected unanticipated long covid

times change and with experience

the manning for anyone who understand me was
6 ventilator beds - 2 staff nurses, 2 auxiliaries and 2 hangers on.
and not surprisingly they have decided there is no need of them

[minesapint]

Just found the letter I referred to. The doctor was required to upload documents proving attendance at conflict resolution, equality diversity and human rights, fire safety and prevention of radicalisation. In all 21 documents were required to be uploaded.
She defied anyone, even doctors currently working in the NHS to provide the necessary documentation.

[Peter Pedant]

you dont understand me
well in that case - good pt - I have no idea why dey dont use dem den

[Peter Pedant]

yeah similar one in the Times
and I was inclined to say
keep quiet, keep on trying

but there seemed to be an element of - they made it difficult so I wont even try now

[bobbinwales]

woofgang allways talks complete sense on these matters.
At worst, maybe it was an overreaction, largely due to wanting to be seen to be doing something, in which case it make sense to dismantle them now if there not going to be of any use. In which case lets not criticise the dismantling, criticise there opening in the first place safe in the knowledge hindsight is a wonderfull thing.
Some may be kept open for overflow, maybe as specialist covid wards , or more likely perhaps for mass vaccinnations

[pixie374]

Minesapint, I think it depends which volunteers you "want". My sister and I, as carers/ healthcare assistants have been volunteering at two local hospitals since June. They only needed a DBS check. I'm not sure anyone wants a "voluntary surgeon", but if people can help out in some ways, it leaves others with other qualifications to get on with their jobs. I don't think anyone should be put off from volunteering, unless they are vulnerable.

[woofgang]

the issue is that if you go back as a doctor/nurse/occupational Therapist or physio etcet, you have to go back as the WHOLE job and that includes all the required certification. If you offer to go back as a support worker, take orders from others and get paid less then the requirements are less stringent.