European or not?

[kaktus]

Following from NiceCupOfTea's question. I have in my readings here in news wondered about what relationship the British have to Europe. I am not talking about the European Union but Europe. Sometimes I have gotten the impression that some of you/most of you feel that you are not part of Europe but more on a island of your own. So do you feel as you are a part of Europe or not? Please drift away from the question if you feel like it!

[Chessman]

My feelings are that even though we are geographically part of Europe, and historically also, from the time settlers first crossed to this country, as an Island, and politically separate from the time of William the Conquerer, we have grown apart, and should stay apart, we think and act differently, and joining with Europe, would, in my opinion, be the end of this country's independence. Crushed, would not be to fine a word.

However, in these modern times, and the way the world is dividing into trading blocks, I think our survival depends on joining one of them, now I know there are lots of people that woudn't agree with me, but given a choice, it wouldn't be the European one.

[jno]

Many people, like Chessman, think all Europeans are alike and the British are different. This hasn't been my experience (I'm not British). British is just one of many types of Europeanness. Nonetheless, many Britons - about half, I'd say - do seem to hate, despise or fear other Europeans and would prefer to be the 51st state of America. In my opinion, they don't realise just how different America is, probably because they think all English-speaking people are alike. They're not.

[Chessman]

jno, I don't hate or despise anyone, what I fear, is what will become of this country if it is integrated into a United states of Europe, and your right in that I would prefer to go with the Americans, I believe that with them, for trade only, (does that phrase ring a bell?), we would stay a sovereign nation, not the 51st state. Of course, I could be wrong, but its a gamble i'd be willing to take.

[jno]

Nobody trades with the Americans except on their terms. If you make stuff too cheaply (such as Chinese underwear), they'll simply turn it away. They'll ignore principles of free trade to protect their airline industry, for example, or their steelmakers. On the other hand, they'll demand that every small nation open its markets to be flooded with Big Macs and other American products. As trading partners, they are to be treated with extreme caution.

[Grunty]

Yes jno, and in my opinion not just as trading partners. Didn't a member of the administration recently say "The president of the United States is all powerful. International law is really irrelevant"?

[Grunty]

I have just found the piece I referred to above. It is dated 29 November and is from Associated Press. The correct wording is

In an Associated Press interview Monday, former Powell chief of staff Lawrence Wilkerson also said that wrongheaded ideas for the handling of foreign detainees after Sept. 11 arose from a coterie of White House and Pentagon aides who argued that "the president of the United States is all-powerful," and that the Geneva Conventions were irrelevant. Wilkerson blamed Vice President Dick Cheney, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and like-minded aides. Wilkerson said that Cheney must have sincerely believed that Iraq could be a spawning ground for new terror assaults, because "otherwise I have to declare him a moron, an idiot or a nefarious *******."

[johnlambert]

wasnt the question about Europe, not the European Union?

The reason we Brits feel more akin with America instead of continental Europe is due to the fact that apart from the language, we share pretty much the same legal systems, and culture. remember that most of what we now call the USA was colonised by the British, we kicked out most of the French and Spanish before the war of indepenance. Since about 1900 US/UK relations have been nothing short of excellent (apart from a small naval dispute in 1927). whereas Euro/UK relations have been steadily in the decline. Recent history tells us that most of Europe only wants what it can get from the USA without giving anything in return, the US did try to help us during the Falklands war, Spain, France, Germany etc did nothing to help their European neighbour.

[johnlambert]

Sorrym, forgot to say that NO I do not feel like im European. I do fell very very British though

[shaneystar2]

Leaving aside politics and the EU...I feel more part of Europe.
I am British.. but not by birth,although I have lived here since I was a child.I am of German origin and so is Mr.S.
I have spent a lot of time living and working in various countries in Europe (including your lovely part of the world,Kaktus)and hope that from my various experiences I have gained a view of the bigger picture.We have a lot in common with our counterparts across the channel..more so than with the Americans .
These days ,when you can hop across to Europe in an hour and have a rich diversity of countries and culture to explore it must only be a good thing.
I would rather be allied with Europe than America for the very reasons jno has mentioned.European countries should stop arguing amongst themselves about petty political issues and all try to work together for the common good.

[bernardo]

Of course I feel European. Being European is an essential and integral ingredient of being British. I rejoice in the thousands of years of European art, history, culture, and scientific advances.

[kaktus]

Thanks for your answers guys, keep them coming. So for some you the fact that the British have good relations with the US keeps you from feeling as a part of Europe? Must admit that from a distance I have to agree with jno that Americans and Britons don't have more in common than Britons and other European countries. But what do I know, I can only look at it from little Denmark and put all my ideas of what Britons and Americans are like :)

Hmm How about the Irish? I was just wondering how much language means. I assume it must have great influence.

And just a point john. France did help you guys a lot during the Falklands war. They sold weapons to Argentina before the war and obviously Argentina used them, but France gave the British the exact same type of weapons/planes so the British military had something to practise on and they knew exactly how the Argentinian weapon systems worked. So there was some help even if it wasn't direct military support

[kaktus]

oops shaneystar and bernardo I didn't see your answers before I started typing! I see there now is two more who feel European :) Must say, like I said above that I feel that you guys have more in common with, well me for example than an American. Not that there aren't a lot o differences as well....

and john I hope I don't sound offending, I assure you that wasn't my intention!

[johnlambert]

No offence taken kaktus, free and honest debate is the cornerstone of democracy, (democracy was invented by the ancient Greeks, very european and copied by the British and Americans)

[kaktus]

That's good john. When I re-read it, I thought I sounded a little aloof :)

[jno]

kaktus I think language makes all the difference. The British are not disposed to trust anyone who doesn't speak their language. Many people in smaller European countries do so very well (including you), but the French and Germans in particular are less disposed to do so. And the British seldom speak any other language. But as I said in an earlier post, I think they are making a mistake to assume that because Americans speak the same tongue they're very similar people. A shared language does, I think, impose a certain similarity in thought processes - but it's far from the only influence. Americans are (for instance) far more religious, and far more friendly, than Britons.

[woofgang]

having lived in the US for two years, I believe that Americans, at least those living in New Jersey, are as "foreign" to the English at the Japanese are. this is not a criticism of either race but my opinion of how different Americans are from us.

Do I feel european? no. Do I want to? no

Do I enjoy aspects of european culture and life? yes

Do i think that we should stay in the EU? no

common currency? Heck no!!

[kaktus]

In case something is still checking this thread :)
Firstly thanks for all your answers guys!

I think you're right about that jno! (The language part) I know that I feel very close to Swedes and Norwegians, and we most certain have more in common that just very similiar languages, but I do believe that language puts a sometimes fake shared culture in motion. Because we may very well be much alike, but there are some big differences as well!! That said language obvoiusly is a part of what constitutes culture.

Can I ask why you don't want to feel European woofgang? That was some of what I had in mind with this question, I just didn't realise it fully until you posted!