Holocaust Denial

[flashpig]

Following on... quite a few more questions. I can't quite grasp this law.

What is the 'evidence' that the holocaust did not happen?

Would it be an offence for someone to question whether the holocaust happened, or explain to someone asking why some people believe that it did not happen, or is it just plain denial?

Would it be an ofence to teach someone about the holocaust in a 'balanced' sort of way and say "and there are some people who believe that this did not happen" and to weigh up their arguments?

Are these laws just designed to stop the spread of these ideas rather than to stop someone having these ideas?

[johnlambert]

flagship you lunatic, it DID happen, just like the 2nd world war happened, and the suez crisis, and man landing on the moon and Vietnam, and the Kennedy assasination, and Thatchers pole tax and John smith's heart attack, and Blair winning the 1997 election and the 2nd Iraq war and 9/11 and Bush winning a second term, and 1066 and England winning the World Cup and Jesus of Nazareth, if you show me evidence that none of these things happened then your a better man than me.

[NiceCupOfTea]

I don't think flashpig is saying it didn't happen, he's trying to get his head round how the law works re denying the Holocaust happened.

The denyers say that all the pictures, witness statements etc are fictional. You are allowed to explain what the denyers are saying, as long as you don't endorse it and make your stance clear. Teaching about the holocaust in a balanced way, and weighing up the denyers' arguments, would make it instantly clear how insubstantial their arguments are anyway.

The laws are designed to stop people spreading these ideas, and the reasons behind them, as I think it is difficult to police people's actual thoughts.

[bernardo]

What is the 'evidence' that the holocaust did not happen?

There is no such evidence. People who deny the holocaust usually make vague statements to the effect that the Jewish population in Eastern Europe was about the same after the war as before (which is nonsense anyway), or that the documents were forged, or that the people who died in the death camps died due to starvation and illness rather than by deliberate extermination.

Would it be an offence for someone to question whether the holocaust happened,

No

or explain to someone asking why some people believe that it did not happen,

No

or is it just plain denial?

Denying that the Holocaust happened is only a crime in some countries, such as Germany, Austria or Israel. It is not a crime in the UK or USA.

Would it be an ofence to teach someone about the holocaust in a 'balanced' sort of way and say "and there are some people who believe that this did not happen" and to weigh up their arguments?

No it wouldn't - not in the UK anyway.

Are these laws just designed to stop the spread of these ideas rather than to stop someone having these ideas?

Both. People can only have the idea if it has spread to them from somewhere. The laws against Holocaust denial also exist to protect minorities against the spreading of hatred and discrimination: the suggestion that the Holocaust did not happen (despite enormous evidence that it did, and the existence of millions of witnesses) is so outrageous that it is generally regarded that a holocaust-denier is likely to be someone who hates Jews, or who wants to minimise what happened, or wants to absolve the murderers of their responsibility.

[bernardo]

By the way, johnlambert why are you being so hostile to the questionner? It was a perfectly valid and reasonable question, and does not merit such a torrent of abuse. If you carry on being nasty to people then some people might start to think that you don't exist.

[Chessman]

As a matter of point, i'm Jewish, and the reason denying the Holocaust in Austria and Germany, is because these states were the leading active participants of the death camps, and obviously, its against the law in Israel, because its a mainly Jewish state, although it has to be remembered that even though it was mainly Jews in these places, others were there as well, also, believe it or not, nowadays, there are proponents of the theory that that WW11 did not happen, preposterous I know, but its happening, so no second world war, no Holocaust.

[surfer mike]

''' Would it be an ofence to teach someone about the holocaust in a 'balanced' sort of way''

There's no room for balance when it comes to the holocaust.

[gucciman]

i presume the imprisonment of the british historian david irving has brought up this question. irving basically claims that after scientific investigations no traces of cyanide have ever been found at any of the death camps and that the mass graves are explained as simply being casualties of war and there being no time to afford them a proper burial during wartime.

i cannot believe he has been imprisoned for 8 yrs for uttering a few sentences, no matter how offensive they are to some people. this is surely setting a dangerous precedent for free speech? the killers of james bulger served less time that that.

[boobesque]

here is annacdotal evidence that the holocaust 'did' happen. have you ever tried to organize something? did it go perfectly smooth? of course not. nothing ever does. now can you imagine that people would be ably to organize a huge fake holocaust involving millions of people and not foul that up terribly? i doubt it.

[Pheasant]

Let's just remember that the holocaust did happen and that it was one of the most outrageous crimes that man has ever perpetrated against fellow man. Fortunately some (not enough) survived, as does pictorial evidence, which allows us to see and hear first hand accounts of the horrors that were meted out to innocent people - gypsies, the mentally disabled and, by far the greatest majority, Jews. Surely these accounts and pictures are sufficient to prove beyond doubt that the holocaust occurred and stop anything like this happening ever again.Tragically, of course, we don't learn. Stalin, during his reign of terror at the helm of the USSR put to death (either directly or indirectly) 55 million of his fellow countrymen. Since the disolution of the Soviet Republic many of the smaller states that have now regained their independence and were held in check by their Soviet masters have started engaging in ethnic cleansing. So too do many of the tribes in Africa. We seem to have learnt nothing from history. I recently read a book, written by a young Iraqi woman who was falsely accused of printing anti-Saddam propaganda. She described her time in prison and the unbearable torure she had to endure almost daily. She spoke of being in a cell with twelve other women and how each was tortured and how some died because they just could not take the pain any longer. There were prisons full of children, children that were being beaten, raped, tortured and murdered by sadistic guards with the sanction of the state. Whatever the reasons we had for invading Iraq at least we have stopped one man from killing so many, (apparently 2 million since he came to power). Finally, you would think that of all people the Jews would have learned from the holocaust, but they seem intent on wiping out the Palastinian State just as Hitler tried to wipe them out. I am sure that if the world turned its back for a few weeks when we looked again Palastine would no longer exist.

[rjkh]

flashpig - you ask where is the 'evidence' that the holocaust did not happen. Try googling well known holocaust deniers such as Ernst Zundel or David Irving. That will give you a lot of websites arguing either side.

[bondy]

Its a fact that you can't prove a negative.eg You can't prove astronauts didnt land on the moon or that Robbie Williams isn't gay. But you can prove the holocaust did happen.There is so much evidence it just could not possibly not be true. People who say otherwise have there own axe to grind. Not sure what the exact law here is but in many other parts of the EU it is very illegal

[joules99]

What I can't get my head round is why it is illegal to even talk about it, any other subject can be discussed, although possibley illegal now with the new Labour anti-terrorism laws etc, but I don't know if it is illegal in UK, but even still to even mention the holocaust causes offence and cringes, WHY?? It either did happen or it didn't, whatever, but why is it so taboo, other historic travesties are ok to discuss?