Our Army in Iraq compared to our police at home

[ianess]

Given the scenario of a crowd of hooligans causing trouble would there be the same public outcry if the police in this country took some of our local yobs behind a wall and roughed them up a bit just to put them in their place?
Maybe what the troops did was technically wrong but the violence used appeared to be minimal, and it just possibly may stop further trouble.
Anyone agree?

[OBonio]

I'm all for letting the Army got on with it. Anyone saying 'ooh, that's wrong' should be sent over there themselves to see if they could do a better job.

From my understanding they had thrown home made bombs at us.... Would be a very different outcome if they'd done that to the Americans.

Oh, and yes. There would be the same public outcry if the police did the same here. But only if they were muslim.

[Supernick]

I think that if the media hadn't leaked it then it wouldn't have had a massive impact. However, now it will be used to whip up extremeist fervour and put more lives at risk, especially the soldiers that the NOTW seem so happy to lambast.They cunningly left off the bits from earlier in the footage though where you can see a home made grenade explode in the compound of course. Have we got to a stage where sensationalist journalism is worth more than their lives? Actually, it probably happened a long time ago.

As for the yobs, they were probably beaten too much, but then throwing home made bombs at soldiers is not going to result in a pat on the back. I wish that people would stop referring to them as 'young muslims' though. Yes, they are, but they're yobs foremost, and you get those in all religions.

[bohochick]

I've just read on the news that this footage is not recent, no excuses but surely people must understand that in the beginning of this war things were a lot worse for our men i can't even begin to imagine the stress they were and still are under. I know the iraqies were young men but so were the british soldiers who are out there doing a job they don't really want to do. I do agree that the press seem to want to endanger the lives of our men. Its sad we should all be behind them as i said before they are just doing there job. the sooner they are all home the better.

[stevie_c2it]

If a foreign army from a hostile culture invaded Great Britain and beat (or killed) those who resented or objected to the occupation, would it 'stop further trouble'?

Probably not. One mans insurgent is just another mans resistance fighter, just depends on your point of view.

Though I share and sympathise with your suggestion for the method of disciplining our own 'home grown� morons, the two scenarios are not comparable. The Iraqis believe they have a legitimate, defensive reason for attacking our troops, our �yob culture� is exactly that, a result of ill educated, disaffected people expressing violence and rebellion through mindless acts.

The solution in both cases I suspect is to �strangle� the source of the anger and resentment. Remove our troops from Iraq (if they truly want to change from a dictatorship to democracy, they will have to be prepared to fight for it themselves in the end � unless you think we should stay there forever?), and in our own case? Well, that�s an even tougher problem.

[brachiopod]

When the reason for invasion was "to remove a brutal dictatorship, responsible for thousands of civilian deaths, and where beatings and detention without trial were commonplace" it is hardly surprising that newspapers will make copy out of these stories by highlighting the hypocrisy of the situation.

The ins and outs of why it happens, or whether you or I could do a better job, are irrelevant - such events (and worse) are the reality of war.

Whether the reporting of these incidents demonstrates our 'free press', or is a valid examination of double standards within the invasion forces, or is a highly irresponsible action that endangers 'our troops' on the ground is a matter of opinion - in the end it helps sell newspapers.

[Lonnie]

As OBonio says, let them get on with it, These youths had apperently been throwing stones and rock at the troops, but that was alright, wasn't it, except for a few bruises, they were ok, and maybe learnt a lesson at the same time.

I don't agree that our troops should be out there, but they are, and should be left to get on with it without their every move being reported in the Newspapers, I don't recall all the good they've done being reorted.

[stevie_c2it]

Lonnie, you raise an interesting question. What good has been done?

[sp1814]

ianess - I don't think we want a society where the police are allowed to beat up whoever they want.

Seriously - I don't think anyone could really wish for that???

[Doggy2]

stevie_c2it reading your posts on previous topics leads me to believe that you are the voice of reason and that's exactly what we need on this forum. I agree 100% with your rational. As I have said before you can not possibly expect democracy to flourish in a country that is invaded by foreign forces and expect iraqis to sit there and say thank you for demolishing the houses and beating the cr*p out of their boys. We never seem to see things from other's perspective and are quick to be judgemental. Whatever the reason we went to war with Iraq whether it is the falsely claimed possesion of WMD or the removal of a dictator which he truely was we are in a deep mess and the sooner we get the troops out the better. But then again politics is a dirty game and I doubt this will happen soon.

And yes Lonnie, our troops are doing a great job and they don't get as much credit for risking their lives but this is the nature of politics and I hate it.

BTW if the reason for war for the removal of a dictator why are we not doing anything about other dictators?. Zimbabwe springs to mind. Or is it because they don't have OIL???

[Lonnie]

Stevie, not being out there, I couldn't tell you, but when we were in NI, doing 'hearts and minds', we formed youth clubs and various other activites, and none of it was reported, only the negative, and I wouldn't mind betting its the same for Iraq.

[ianess]

sp1814.......no, I certaily do not want our police force to be out of control, but speaking as a bit of an old-timer I can still remember the days when parents controlled their kids and adults were treated with respect. Childhood ended at age 15 when you left school and became a wage earner. Nowadays we have big kids in their thirties who haven't done a day's work in their life out playing in the street on their skateboards!
A respect and bit of fear for those in authority did nobody any harm, and if the police had to contact your parents about you there was serious trouble in store.
Even in this country as much as in Iraq [ and yes I agree we shouldn't be there in the first place] most of the trouble appears to be caused by out of control kids or so-called students acting like kids.
I sometimes also question whether democracy is all it's made out to be. Wasn't it Margaret Thatcher who said that just because the majority want something, that doesn't make it right?

[stevie_c2it]

Lonnie I take your point, but I believe there is a world of difference between the good works you undertook in NI, and the efforts that could realistically be achieved by our troops in Iraq.

If we put the situation in context, we have Invaded a country, killing many thousands of innocents in the bombing raids at the start of the war, and then forceably occupied it while it has been torn apart by political divisions and daily loss of life. It is not now likely that our troops can 'win the hearts and minds' of iraqis by setting up youth clubs or other activities.

My own opinion is they should return home now to defend our borders from the attacks that will undoubtably occur from the extremists we have created.

[sp1814]

ianess - I too am getting on a bit - I remember when Michael Jackson was black and Madonna didn't have arms like a 25 year old middleweight boxer - and I totally agree that we seem to have an upsurge of, frankly, feral behaviour amongst teens (and 20s and...so on),

But IMHO, I think if we ever allowed our police force leeway to 'give the little blighters a clip round the ear' once in a while, firstly, they'd be up to their ears in lawsuits and secondly, it would give those little blighters leave to fight back - and then all hell would break loose.

I know where you're coming from, and admit I don't have any answers...I just don't think we should encourage street justice amongst the people we pay to uphold the law.

[yasmin_fa]

well i read the comment why such outcries after" a so minor incident" as that of british soldiers beatting irqis??? but i think this is no minor midead because the one who beats and the one being beated are not from the same country it would not either be if they were both british what for a military supposedly is there to secure the iraqis a dignity they did not know under sadam , so in this case there is no difference between sadam and these british or americans except for the fact that now these human rights violations are beeing videotaped for the sake of insane people who are deligted to see others suffer and humiliated, the same person said it doesn 't appear to inflict much suffering to the the ones beatted ! well let me tell you that surely you will think differently if you were the one receiving those kicks and feel it more particularly stronger and painfully if you get it in one intimate area as it did happened to one of those iraqis!

[laurence2]

Yasmin, so if you was under attack etc would you defend yourself ? And you think their is no difference between Saddam & soilders, Was HITLER & the british/american soilders the same as well ?

My view pull the soilders out and lets see if some of the comments in these post are right, Suspect not as iragies will STILL kill each other.

Stevie c2it, Seeing you think you are the voice of reason, You go out their and explain your views to both sides, Doubt where hear from you again, these people don't no what reasoning is.

Ps, Think you might of overlooked all the murders prior to Irag being invaded, where innocent men/women & children were MURDERED by the evil dictatorship which was then in place, If this country went to war tomorrow theirs certain people on this site i would'nt want WATCHING MY BACK ?

[stevie_c2it]

Laurence2, several points to explain to you, hope you can follow.

Firstly: you are correct in one of the comments you make (only one, don�t get too excited), �if we pull out, the Iraqis will still kill one another� I quite agree, at the moment however, they are still killing one another, and, our troops as well, is this preferable to you?
While we remain, they will blame this situation on the west, and there hatred of us and our society and culture will increase. I think your comments indicate you are capable of understanding this.

Secondly: if you believe we invaded Iraq to liberate �These People� as you describe them, read no further, the rest is beyond your comprehension.

Thirdly: (still here?) What has the war achieved? Sure we have removed one dictator, but sooner or later we will have to withdraw our troops (even you want that), and when we do, another tyrant will take his place. When that happens, you can expect a greater level of State-sponsored terrorism aimed at the West, by a society and culture that have grown to hate us even more. Consequence more deaths in this country.

Fourthly: I didn�t claim I was the voice of reason, that was too flattering, but your comment �these people don�t no (sp) what reasoning is� demonstrates both unsavoury prejudice and irony.

[laurence2]

stevie c2it, I don't need the likes of you to explain to me about history/whats going on in IRAQ, Don't patronise me with your post, I get the impression you will be at the front of the anti-war demo's.

What makes you feel that you no what your talking about and i don't, Your views are respected, Don't mock mine or me

[Doggy2]

Actually Stevie it was me who said you are the voice of reason in this thread and I wasn't flattering. That is the truth and it's always good that someone gives a balanced view from both perspectives instead of just making comments without knowing the full picture. I just get annoyed when ppl highjack my quotes.
I didn't see the West drumming the beats when the same dictator killed so many innocent iraqi kurds and Iranians in the late 80s and the beginning of 90s. So much for our compassion when it mattered and we just ignored it. Liberation of Iraq is not because we love the Iraqi ppl as it can be gathered from some views here but because the politicians had other agendas. And yes I did vote against the war. So what? At least I know now that I didn't buy into some dodgy dossier that was 'sexed up' to go to war. And more importantly what has this war achieved? I rest my case. The sooner we have the troops out of Iraq, the quicker we can get out of this mess our politicians have got us into.

[stevie_c2it]

Laurence2, what exactly do you mean by 'the likes of you'? It sounds like an insult to me!

You accuse me of being an anti-war demonstrator, as if it's something I should be ashamed of?

To set the record straight, there are lots of conflicts I've supported, so please, put all the assumptions you seem to have made about me some sort of 'wishy washy liberal' right out of out of your head.

I'm sorry if you think I'm patronising you, but to be honest I don't see how I can avoid it. Blindly accepting (and supporting) a war, particularly one based on a phoney prospectus is never a good start. Your welcome of course to express your opinions, as I hope I am, but as of yet no one has put forward a compelling case as to what good has been done by this war, nor it would seem, have many pro-iraq war supporters addressed the issue of what happens next.

Do you want to compare exit strategies?

[laurence2]

Stevie, The likes of you = patronising others, If you take that as an insult so be it, Just like i find patronising an insult.

My original post was my response to how i feel, ie pull the soilders out, your response however got personal, your views, my views are lets say somewhat different thats what makes debates in life fascinating, so i look forward to having more debates in the near future without the digs

Thankyou