On the spot fines

[Andy Boz]

Smoking in public places banned in Scotland, with an on the spot fine for offenders. Ditto litter droppers. Is this govt too much in favour of on the spot fines? Do they deter anybody? How can a person be fined for having no car tax, when not SORNed, doesn't 'innocent until proved guilty' work anymore?

[chimney]

No it doesn't, you are guilty until proved innocent because targets have to be met

[bernardo]

If you pay the fine, you are admitting guilt. If you proclaim your innocence, you can go to court to challenge the fine. It's a useful way to save time and costs for minor matters.

[Dolly1308]

Sorry to appear ignorant but what does SORNed mean?

[Oneeyedvic]

Statutary Off Road Notification (or similar) - you need to sign one if you do not renew your car tax.

[Loosehead]

Bernardo is correct, all the instant fines are in fact inviations to admit guilt and pay up, you can always plead not guilty and go through the courts.

[Grunty]

It's disappointing that the ban only applies to enclosed places. When we go into a public building, we shall still have to fight our way through the smoke emitted by little gangs of people lurking around the doors.

[WaldoMcFroog]

If your car is on the public highway without displaying a valid tax disc, you are guilty of an offence, therefore your point about 'innocent until proved guilty' is irrelevant. If you don't have one, you are guilty, end of.

[geo0939]

Grunty, if you refer to the Scottish ban I think you'll find it covers all public buildings. You can't smoke in bus shelters either. It is only allowed in an area which is open on three sides, out of doors.

[gessoo]

Surely though Waldo, if you have a car that is off the road and on your own property they can still fine you if you have not declared it off the road? That is how I understand the new car tax arrangments. Why should we have to pay a fine when cars are not on the road and we haven't declared it? Why is it up to us to tell them? I undestand what Andy Boz is saying.

[WaldoMcFroog]

"Surely though Waldo, if you have a car that is off the road and on your own property they can still fine you if you have not declared it off the road?"

Yes - if it's not taxed, because it is illegal not to do one of two things:
1) Tax it or
2) Get a SORN

"Why should we have to pay a fine when cars are not on the road and we haven't declared it?"

er.. because it's illegal. You don't have to agree with the system of car taxation, but that's still the law!

"Why is it up to us to tell them?"
Because it's a bit difficult for the DVLA to guess where you're keeping your car!

In addition to paying for road buliding and maintenance, road tax proves that a vehicle is insured and MOT'd and thus safe to drive on the roads, therefore it's in the public interest that cars that do not display valid road tax are not driven on the roads. However, its not illegal to keep a car which is not road worthy off the road. The SORN ensures that the DVLA's database of roadworthy cars is complete.

If it's on the road it needs tax, if it's off, it needs a SORN and if you don't have the appropriate one, you're commiting an offence, simple.

[campbellking]

Do smokers chucking fag ends away in public get twice the fine then?

[nedflanders]

It will deter the publican, as if someone gets caught smoking in theri establishment they get a �200 fine.

[Englishbird]

I do feel a bit downtrodden at times.

People who don't tax or insure their cars, most likely wont have the car registered in their name in the first place, so they're not going to get caught. Whereas people who have forgotten to tax their car, or haven't got the money till pay day will be punished.

I've never dropped litter, having had it installed in me not to, I'm basically a law abiding, tax paying member of society, but if I have a lapse in concentration and go 45 instead of 40 past a speed camera, or the wind catches my crisp packet, I'm the one going to pay, not the sods who regularly break the law.

It seems to me that the serious crimes get punished more leniently and the minor ones more harshly than previously. I know the argument, if you don't do anything wrong then you've got nothing to worry about, but are we all seriously that squeaky clean?

I'm afraid it's the tax paying 'middle classes' that end up feeling put apon and dejected, and many of which are leaving the country.

If you have your house broken into you're lucky to see a policeman and you can't get insurance on work tools because they're stolen so regularly, but god forbid you're 5 minutes over on your parking ticket, they come out the woodwork.

[gessoo]

Thanks Waldo. I do understand all that. But in your original answer you only talked about cars that were on the road not having a licence. I was responding to that comment.

However, I still agree with Andy Boz about the innocent until proven guilty remark. To be fined for not declaring a car off the road is ludicrous - even if it is the law. If we were to get rid of our televisions would we have to declare it to the BBC or be fined.

[Englishbird]

I'm not having a go at policemen btw, I think they do a good job on the whole, but the system is sadly lacking.

[gessoo]

Wise posting Englishbird.

[WaldoMcFroog]

"But in your original answer you only talked about cars that were on the road not having a licence."

I really don't understand your point. If you have a car on the highway, it needs to be taxed by law, no exceptions. Sorry if I'mbeing really thick, but I don't understand where the issue is with that.

[gessoo]

Waldo. Sorry if I was unclear. I was trying to point out that Andy Boz, in my opinion, was talking about being fined for not declaring a car off the road (which I consider is somewhat unfair). Your original reply to was pointing out that if you have an untaxed car on the road it is an offence of which you are obviously guilty. Of course, I would agree with the justness of this.

[Andy Boz]

The point I was attempting to clarify was that this gov't is too reliant on 'on the spot' fines . I am unconvinced that the gov't is fair, with regard to SORN, and TV licences etc. As far as I'm concerned, the gov't seems intent on imposing a 'Big brother' society (eg photocard driving licences) and we just all appear to lie down and get shafted.

I am familiar with the SORN rules incidentally, I was just using the example of SORN to illustrate the 'you are guilty, you will pay' attitude that seems so common from Mr Blair and Co.

Thankyou all for your replies