How do you put a value to someone's life?

[LaLaLand2006]

This article has appeared in my local newspaper today... http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/displayNode. jsp?nodeId=133965&command=displayContent&sourc eNode=133948&contentPK=14723909&moduleName=Int ernalSearch&formname=sidebarsearch Are we really a society that judges a persons "value" in such a harsh, judgemental way... Whatever your views, yes she did some bad things in her life, but she didn't exactly have an easy start, middle.... and had an even nastier end to it. There's a few high profile politicians, football managers, priests etc etc that I can think of that haven't exactly led a moral life (and not to mention kept their high paid jobs) but I'm damn sure there would be an outcry if a similar decision was made should they be murdered in cold blood. Is there a sliding scale somewhere (�1m for a doctors life.... but anyone who's led a "socially unacceptable" life... well they're worth nothing. Moral point-scoring? I'm appalled.

[cardiacbleed]

minty you ask about thinking outside the box, yet you miss what i'm getting at, i am not saying that the choice to use drugs initially is a good thing far from it, but you have to appreciate some messed up kid that has run away from home fleeing from abuse or appalling circumstances may not be mature enough or have such low self esteem that they make that initial mistake and take the offer of drugs from someone who is being nice to them (initially until they become hooked).. you harp on about kiddy fiddlers being worthy of the death penalty, yet their victims are not worth your compassion if they took drugs because of the mental effects of having that done to them means they have a distorted view of life and their self worth? you saying all involved in abuse are worthy of the death penalty?

i agree not every, maybe not the majority of junkies will have started out this way, but most i have met have had self esteem or social or environmental issues, immaturity, physiological or even intellectual issues...that lead them on the road, not that many middle and even less upper class kids end up on smack...

so you want out the box, well thats what i'm offering, help those that are junkies, if they won't take help, lock them up to keep society and THEM safe (as in this case, the girl was murdered for being in that environment) but don't put them back on the streets with a fine leading to more crime to pay or at least if not to be paid then hanging over their heads as another reason not to get their life back on track..

yes you can come off drugs, yes you should come off drugs in fact i am advocating forcing people off drugs, but as things stand the help is limited

cont..

[cardiacbleed]

don't just write them off! the damage has been done, they've become a thief, a beggar a prostitute a liar , but when they become involved in the legal system instead of issuing fines to someone already desperate for money to feed their addiction, society should treat their illness, and you offer help rather than more fines...

i mean for gods sake what logic is there in fining someone who is already stealing because they need money!? whilst people like you just denigrate them and offer no solutions but endorse an opinion of a dead junkie is a good junkie things won't change

[noxlumos]

There is indeed no justification in fining people who are already stealing to feed their habit, but you can't force people to come off drugs, it simply does not work. The need to take drugs is not just a physical addiction, in fact that's the least of it, it's a psychological crutch that they are unable to do without. Take it away before they are ready and they fall, every time. Imprison them and make them go cold turkey and as soon as they talk their way out of the prison ( yeah I'm clean, never touch it gain, thanks you've done so much for me etc etc etc) they will return to drugs. It's like mother's milk until you decide yourself enough is enough. Then and only then will you quit. That being the case the only way to encourage people is to persuade them that their future will be brighter without drugs (amazingly hard to see at the time) and we won't do that by stigmatising drug addiction. It can and does happen to anyone, but when it does we, as a society, need to make it clear that as an ex junkie you can be as valued as the next person. Sadly this isn't true at the moment as the attitudes here demonstrate and the actions of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority show.

[cardiacbleed]

nox i know where you're coming from, i used the term "force" incorrectly i should have said an incentive to accept rehab...

you know as well as any the only time you will succeed is when you are mentally able and willing to accept that drugs offer no solutions, only problems...i believe we do not incentives people and hope they come to this decision on their own

i think personally locking people up who don't accept the offer of rehab is the only way.... the other option is to do nothing, fines and then release them into society and put them and others in danger through the hunger of addiction...

i accept lock them up in a bog standard prison will do little good, they do their time, they get released they go back to drugs.... my proposed solution offers help but at the same time punishment until they come to terms with the reasons for incarceration and until they accept the offer of help this is the cycle they will end up in perpetually...

in my view they have to be removed from society i'm not saying prison necessarily either, perhaps secure units? i don't know this is off the cuff, i propose a similar idea to sectioning (avoiding the stigma of a criminal record if for drugs offences alone), and then treating the psychological reasons that lead them to take drugs, if there are no serious psychological reasons then treat the ones that relate to the denial that keeps them on drugs along with career advice and vocational training perhaps to allow them the luxury of self worth and a future that people like minty take for granted...

[cardiacbleed]

if they cannot accept this treatment then just exclusion from society at the very least is the most humane and safest way to deal with the addiction for them and society?.. i'm not saying lock them up for ever, but when released they are tested and if they break the terms they get locked up again

being an addict of a drug like crack or smack will mean you will almost certainly commit crime, not for greed or self improvement but to feed a physical and mental addiction which is by it's nature is not rational thought, so if it is irrational and beyond the self control of the individual to refrain from crime, is this not the time to step in with true social care?

[noxlumos]

I have no problems with locking anyone up who commits a crime but what about those addicts that refuse help but commit no crime? I agree they are in the minority, but I was one who never committed a crime to fund my drug use, I went to prison for wholly different reasons and I think had I been detained for drug abuse which damaged no-one but myself then that would have been really morally reprehensible and would in fact have slowed my personal realisation that I had to quit. Facing the psychological reasons that you take drugs is another thing which you can't do unil you are ready so I'm hesitant to agree with you about forcing rehab in any context as I simply think it won't work.I agree that drug use and posession alone should not inflict a criminal record on someone as that is quite possibly something which will destroy their entire life and anything which makes it harder for an addict to find legitimate employment makes it more likely that they will turn to dealing to fund their addiction, so it makes no sense at all to stigmatise people who may just be recreational users.We have to give young people in our poorest areas a way out of the cycle of poverty, crime and drugs from a far earlier age.I still see kids of 11 and 12 years old who feel they are write offs already, it's that that has to stop I think and all the rest will follow.

[SarCaustic]

The issues and questions raised in this thread are too numerous for me to answer in one post so I'll address the simplest first.

Drug addiction, just like alcoholism is an ilness - so say the doctors, but heaven forfend someone should contradict the great Ward-Minter!

Secondly, according to a Home Office statistic for every �1 spent on treating drug addicts �3 are saved in the crime prevented. Put simply, there are not enough rehabilitation centres in the UK, so addicts (I'm thinking of heroin addicts) are given methadone treatment, which does not work.