Is the Pope correct?

[Loosehead]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1 3542684,00.html

[WaldoMcFroog]

Not for the first time, I'm finding myself extremely frustrated that the online press I've seen only contains the soundbite and the reaction and not any wider discussion of the context, so I find it difficult to comment on what the Pope was talking about.

[wnjxc21]

tired tired tired of hearing about muslims!

[admarlow]

I agree with Waldo things are always taken out of context. BTW thinking about it though the Pope must be the fanatics arch enemy, the king of the infidels, not GWB

[OBonio]

The pope's quote is simply that. He wasn't making the comment himself and some muslims appear to have taken his this completely out of context. He stressed twice that they are not his words and yet they demand an apology. Hopefully the more intelligent muslims will see this for what it is.

[admarlow]

W...also who gives a flying �#/& what a Rochdale youth organisation thinks, what poor reporting Sky

[brionon]

obonio, oh boy have you got a long wait.

[OBonio]

Yes, I know. A rather optimistic view. It's a Friday.. optimism is on the up and will start to recede about 5.30pm.

[smithers]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_ 09_06_pope.pdf

[suffragette]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_ 09_06_pope.pdf

I hope this link works because it is the full version of The Pope's speech. He made it clear he was quoting from writings that dealt with a conversation between the Byzantine Emperor, Mannuel II Paleologus, and an educated Persian who were discussing the subject of Christianity and Islam. Unfortunately, extremists always refuse to view such things rationally and go off half cocked.

[suffragette]

Dash it smithers!!! Beat me to it, you cad!

[WaldoMcFroog]

Right, I've now read through the speech and my understanding of it is that it is a discussion of how faith and reason interact, and what is appropriate for the Christian Faith.

The excerpt from the dialogue between a Muslim and a Christian is used to show that the Christian believes that God can only work in a way in accordance with rationality. The Muslim, by contrast, believes that forcing God to behave only in ways which are in accordance with rationality limits God.

There then follows a long discussion of how Greek (which seems to be used as shorthand for 'rational') thought and Christianity became linked and then three separate periods where some attempt was made to unlink them again - for example because the essential message of Jesus was being burried in theology and philosophy.

If I am reading this thing correctly, the Pope concludes that science is incredibly useful and must not be rejected (he actually includes a dig at the ID loonies) but it is not the be all and end all. He makes the point that if God is reduced to behaving only in accordance with Western rationality, then it denies God's (no doubt to him) obvious part in non-western societies.

In other words - again, if I am interpreting this correctly - he is actually saying the Muslim guy from the short extract all this fuss is about was right to say 'God is not restricted to the rational' and the Christian bloke was wrong.

[Catso]

Why are they so insecure about their religion?

I don't go into a big tantrum if someone says Jesus didn't exist, Christianity is all bunkum or the crusaders killed people who didn't agree with them. (Not that I'm very religious, anyhow!)

[jake-the-peg]

The key part of the speech seems to use Islamic history as a basis for an argument against violent conversion.

Perhaps he might have chosen a starting point a little closer to home such as his own church's history in South America.

Sounds pretty hypocritical to me

[Loosehead]

Good point catso, that could be a question in it's own right. Imagine if they made the islamic equivalent of "Life of Brian"! Mass Fatwa!

[admarlow]

CATSO - think you have hit the nail on the head (or into the cross ha ha ) You could look at Jihad in the same light as a Cristian Crusade (and therefore that is something we grew out of 100's of years ago!) I don't see any Christians trying to forcibly convert anyone.

[fawna]

I don't think either religion, muslim or christian, deserves any more praise or criticism than the other.

[Grunty]

The Pope was quoting. He did not agree or disagree with the quote. If it is wrong to remember things that happened in the past, and learn from them, we should take an example from the Nazis and burn the history books in the market square.