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ok, i don't mean to offend anyone here i really don't but if you are a devout christian or have devout religious values you might not want to read this.
I am christenened..and so..technically a christian. howevever i have recently decided i am a definite atheist.
God DOES NOT EXIST.fine fine...people can tell me that in their opinion he does...and thats fine of course everyone is welcome to their own belief but i just cannot fathom it. i spent my whole childhood believing in God but i've recently been thinking a lot about the whole issue of faith and decided that there is no way...none at all..that God exists, that Jesus ever was born etc etc. There is such little to base this on and science just overules it all with much more possible evidence. The only evidence of god is the bible..and thats just written by biased people. I'm saying this and im not even a science fanatic or anything.
Again i'm really sorry if i have offended anyone...of course people can believe what they want..I'm just not going to kid myself anymore that there is a god. because i believe that that is partially what it is..kidding yourself that God is there to protect you and everything when really..after all the terrible terrible things that happen..theres no way that god is there even trying to protect us.
Anyone else feel like this? or can anyone sway me the other way and really convince me that there is a god?
I am christenened..and so..technically a christian. howevever i have recently decided i am a definite atheist.
God DOES NOT EXIST.fine fine...people can tell me that in their opinion he does...and thats fine of course everyone is welcome to their own belief but i just cannot fathom it. i spent my whole childhood believing in God but i've recently been thinking a lot about the whole issue of faith and decided that there is no way...none at all..that God exists, that Jesus ever was born etc etc. There is such little to base this on and science just overules it all with much more possible evidence. The only evidence of god is the bible..and thats just written by biased people. I'm saying this and im not even a science fanatic or anything.
Again i'm really sorry if i have offended anyone...of course people can believe what they want..I'm just not going to kid myself anymore that there is a god. because i believe that that is partially what it is..kidding yourself that God is there to protect you and everything when really..after all the terrible terrible things that happen..theres no way that god is there even trying to protect us.
Anyone else feel like this? or can anyone sway me the other way and really convince me that there is a god?
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Hi baremission,try posting this a bit further down on the Religion & Spirituality section.
Although having read your post again I'm a bit confused as to why you've posted at all since you've gone to great lengths to emphasise why you don't believe - not to mention the non existance of God. Strange.
By the way I've never met a technical Christian whose a definite atheist. Interesting combination ;-)
Although having read your post again I'm a bit confused as to why you've posted at all since you've gone to great lengths to emphasise why you don't believe - not to mention the non existance of God. Strange.
By the way I've never met a technical Christian whose a definite atheist. Interesting combination ;-)
Hi there
Just saw this post before turning in.
I understand exactly where you are coming from Baremission.
Is there a God?It is the eternal question.
For twenty years I was married to an Anglican clergyman. I believed strongly in God and had a sincere faith. However after he died of cancer (Mpore than 20 years ago) I started to think more about it all. It wasn't his death which caused me to loose my faith. Just common sense and scientific research. (Darwen Richard Dawkins etc.)
I do believe that historically Jesus lived. But stories have grown around his life and the Bible is just a collection of myths, truth and half-truths.
I still believe that the Christian way of life is the one to be followed i.e. Love thy neighbour as thyself. Give and it shall be given unto you etc etc. But living the Christain way without the belief in God doesn't make me or anyone else a Christian.
It is entirely possible to live a moral and altruistic life without believing in a supreme God.
Many of my friends are convinced in their religious beliefs and I always repect those.
Baremission....the problem is that none of us will really know the truth until after death. But my money is on the here and now and I think that' s it|!!!
Enjoy your special existence!
Just saw this post before turning in.
I understand exactly where you are coming from Baremission.
Is there a God?It is the eternal question.
For twenty years I was married to an Anglican clergyman. I believed strongly in God and had a sincere faith. However after he died of cancer (Mpore than 20 years ago) I started to think more about it all. It wasn't his death which caused me to loose my faith. Just common sense and scientific research. (Darwen Richard Dawkins etc.)
I do believe that historically Jesus lived. But stories have grown around his life and the Bible is just a collection of myths, truth and half-truths.
I still believe that the Christian way of life is the one to be followed i.e. Love thy neighbour as thyself. Give and it shall be given unto you etc etc. But living the Christain way without the belief in God doesn't make me or anyone else a Christian.
It is entirely possible to live a moral and altruistic life without believing in a supreme God.
Many of my friends are convinced in their religious beliefs and I always repect those.
Baremission....the problem is that none of us will really know the truth until after death. But my money is on the here and now and I think that' s it|!!!
Enjoy your special existence!
Floodie made a good point there. Just because one doesn't believe in god doesn't mean that Jesus wasn't about. There is a good chance that there was a Jesus character about but today he would be described as the leader of a cult. But with time his ideas have been accepted by a large proportion of society and I say fair play to him. But as with all major artists of today he wasn't as popular in his own time as he is now, just like Van Gogh etc.
Good morning
Thanks Styley for your response and I agree with you. If Jesus had been born now he would be regarded as a kind of Hippie. From the Scriptures we gather he did lead that kind of life in New Testament days. He made a tremendous impact then and of course still does.
(Apologies for the awful spelling errors in my previous posting especially to the people of Darwen! )
Thanks Styley for your response and I agree with you. If Jesus had been born now he would be regarded as a kind of Hippie. From the Scriptures we gather he did lead that kind of life in New Testament days. He made a tremendous impact then and of course still does.
(Apologies for the awful spelling errors in my previous posting especially to the people of Darwen! )
As Darwin himself put it, science explains how the universe works, not why. If you want to find God (i.e. a higher power of your own understanding), baremission, do not look to mathematics or chemistry or biology, but to philosophy: why are you born? What is the meaning of life? That sort of thing.
As for existence of Jesus, there are Roman and Jewish records, and the Bible itself contains viable evidence. You might as well say there is little evidence that Julius Ceasar ever existed.
And no, you haven't offended me.
As for existence of Jesus, there are Roman and Jewish records, and the Bible itself contains viable evidence. You might as well say there is little evidence that Julius Ceasar ever existed.
And no, you haven't offended me.
johnlambert and Romeo, there is no evidence for Jesus as a historical figure, as there is for Julius Caesar.
We cannot be sure when Jesus is supposed to have lived, not a word was written about him during that supposed lifetime, no mention of him by any historian of that time or anyone else. There are no eye- or ear-witness accounts by anyone who is supposed to have known him.
Paul introduces the idea of Jesus in his epistles, written in the AD50s, but Paul never knew him and offers no evidence. The subsequent gospels (written between AD70 and the turn of the century) were by unidentifiable people who weren't there and who did not know Jesus.
The Jesus story has exactly the same historical status as the stories of Snow White and Cinderella - stories of magic written by unknown people many years ago.
We cannot be sure when Jesus is supposed to have lived, not a word was written about him during that supposed lifetime, no mention of him by any historian of that time or anyone else. There are no eye- or ear-witness accounts by anyone who is supposed to have known him.
Paul introduces the idea of Jesus in his epistles, written in the AD50s, but Paul never knew him and offers no evidence. The subsequent gospels (written between AD70 and the turn of the century) were by unidentifiable people who weren't there and who did not know Jesus.
The Jesus story has exactly the same historical status as the stories of Snow White and Cinderella - stories of magic written by unknown people many years ago.
johnlambert, "loads of references" is one of those claims that Christians make in the hope that they will never be challenged to produce them. I won't lumber you with having to produce "loads"; just give me one reference to any writing by anyone who knew Jesus, follower or enemy.
The historians that Christians always quote have no authority in the matter: Josephus, for example, was not born until AD37, Tacitus in AD55 and Suetonius in AD69; They were writing in the late1st/early 2nd Centuries and neither can have any knowledge of the facts. The very brief references they make to Jesus could have been based on the gospel stories.
What you should set your mind to is explaining why the historians who were writing during the supposed lifetime of Jesus make no mention of him (e.g. Philo or Justus of Tiberias) even though they were concerned with the current affairs of Palestine and the Jewish religion. One of them writes a lot about Pilate with no reference to Jesus.
Let's have facts, johnlambert, not spin.
The historians that Christians always quote have no authority in the matter: Josephus, for example, was not born until AD37, Tacitus in AD55 and Suetonius in AD69; They were writing in the late1st/early 2nd Centuries and neither can have any knowledge of the facts. The very brief references they make to Jesus could have been based on the gospel stories.
What you should set your mind to is explaining why the historians who were writing during the supposed lifetime of Jesus make no mention of him (e.g. Philo or Justus of Tiberias) even though they were concerned with the current affairs of Palestine and the Jewish religion. One of them writes a lot about Pilate with no reference to Jesus.
Let's have facts, johnlambert, not spin.
Most people are Christened as babies or young children and this ceremony should not influence your adult beliefs. I chose not to have my sons Christened 25 years ago as, even though I believe in Christ, I was not a 'practicing Christian' or a church goer. Solemn promises are made at this ceremony and I knew I could not uphold them. For many a Christening is a family occasion without meaning.
I regret not refusing to be a god parent many years ago before I knew what it really meant.
My relatives tried to persuade me to have a Christening in case something happened to my sons which left them in purgatory! My husand and I refused and never regretted it.
My adult sons are free to be a conscious part of any ceremony of any religion they choose but have expressed no serious religious views to me. I hope they will only involve themselves in ceremonies or marriages based on their beliefs and those of the persons they will love.
For the record I also declined a church wedding (whilst talking to the vicar) for similar reasons. I have never regretted my register office wedding.
I regret not refusing to be a god parent many years ago before I knew what it really meant.
My relatives tried to persuade me to have a Christening in case something happened to my sons which left them in purgatory! My husand and I refused and never regretted it.
My adult sons are free to be a conscious part of any ceremony of any religion they choose but have expressed no serious religious views to me. I hope they will only involve themselves in ceremonies or marriages based on their beliefs and those of the persons they will love.
For the record I also declined a church wedding (whilst talking to the vicar) for similar reasons. I have never regretted my register office wedding.
Chakka - what about Mathew, Mark, Luke and John? They knew Jesus in his lifetime and wrote about him later? Don't they count? I assume you don't count them because that doesn't suit you. Go have an argument with a professor of biblical history. Are you a professor of biblical history? I doubt that very much, sonny.
Oh dear, Romeo, you really should not parade your ignorance so publically.
The gospels were written and distributed anonymously and were given their present names quite arbitrarily late in the 2nd Century - about AD180. I do not need to be a professor of biblical history to know that, merely one who knows his subject. If you can find any evidence that the gospel writers knew Jesus (which for several reasons isn't possible or even suggested by any reputable scholar) then you will amaze not only me but the whole of New Testament scholarship.
Take some time off to go to the library and start learning about the origins of the New Testament and then come back.
The gospels were written and distributed anonymously and were given their present names quite arbitrarily late in the 2nd Century - about AD180. I do not need to be a professor of biblical history to know that, merely one who knows his subject. If you can find any evidence that the gospel writers knew Jesus (which for several reasons isn't possible or even suggested by any reputable scholar) then you will amaze not only me but the whole of New Testament scholarship.
Take some time off to go to the library and start learning about the origins of the New Testament and then come back.
chakka35
I was born in 1960, my AB username "John Lambert" was a parilamentarian general during the English civil war and died in 1684, I wrote my dissertation on him to get my Histroy hons degree, my point is, you don't have to have known someone to write a history of their life.
You are correct in your statement that Josephus the historian was not born until after the crucifixion however, he interviewed many of Jesu's friends, AND enemies.
I was born in 1960, my AB username "John Lambert" was a parilamentarian general during the English civil war and died in 1684, I wrote my dissertation on him to get my Histroy hons degree, my point is, you don't have to have known someone to write a history of their life.
You are correct in your statement that Josephus the historian was not born until after the crucifixion however, he interviewed many of Jesu's friends, AND enemies.
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