Personal choice or daft acceptance?

[Whickerman]

If i was, say, a devotee of the Hare Khrishna movement, and worked at a supermarket checkout, should I be allowed to refuse to serve/checkout meat products because of my beliefs?

While you're thinking about it, have a look at this:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/artic le2558198.ece

My personal view is that if a part of a job bothers you, you should apply elsewhere for work. For instance, as a Pagan I would probably be happier not working for a Christian radio station, so i don't.

[VillageVicar]

Whickerman, this is indeed a brilliant and emotive issue to raise. Sadly, our nation, if not our world, is imploding into its own pathological obsessions with political correctness. As a priest in the Anglican church, I�m sure you�re aware of the challenges we�re globally facing over homosexual priests. The article you shared is a brilliant example of how absurd we�re all becoming.

Just imagine, tomorrow, a vegan till clerk will be holding their hands up for salvation because some rabid murderous shopper has raped and pillared the fruit and veg section and cast carrot cadavers on Sainsbury�s conveyor belts. During Passover, the devout Jew may refuse to handle anything that isn�t marked Kosher and the far right Christian will be throwing their hands up when a packet of condoms rolls up to the scanning device. The animal rights society will refuse to sell dog food because it contains the contents of horse, pork, and old Tory politicians�

Oh, and don�t forget: parish the thought that the budding testosterone infused teenager has scooped up a copy of FHM, Nuts and �Big uns� and has cast those onto the belt as well. Mrs McGillicutty�s moral majority group, who are lobbying for the elimination of the human body, will want to raise their hands, but will have to have another advocacy group from Age Concern to help them because they�re simply too old to do so�and then, everyone�s rights will have been violated!

It�s a great thought provoker�but crikey, where do we begin!

Well done. Best one of the day!

Fr. Bill

[Whickerman]

Thanks Village Vicar

I'd love to get the whole picture of that debate within the Anglican church. I read quite a bit about it, and was really interested in the opposing views being debated whilst I visited the US. Could I ask if you'd open a thread in the religion section and give some pointers as to where it is now, what the argument is etc?

[THECORBYLOON]

If the employer has no objections, why should it bother you?

[weeal]

cant believe that , what on earth next?

Alcohol is allowed to be sold/consumed in this country, people employed in this country should abide by the ways of this country or go work somewhere theres nothing that they 'dont agree with'

grrrrr i wanna swear my head off

[andy-hughes]

I am not - and I am sure many other knee-jerk reactors are the same - sufficiently conversent with Islamic custom to know whether this is a temporary request to comply with the restrictions of Ramadan - and this may well be the case - in which case i think the company have handled the issue with sensitivity.

I would not imagine that a Muslim devout enough to object to handling alcohol would seek employment in a supermarket, and then object when this aspect of their duties comes to light.

However, I would think it undreasonable to object to handling alcohol on religious grounds - no doubt this is discussed at the induction or interview, and dealt with there.

[THECORBYLOON]

In the article, it says, 'A spokeswoman for Sainsbury�s, confirming Mustapha�s stance, said: �At the application stage we ask the relevant questions regarding any issues about handling different products and where we can we will try and accommodate any requirements people have, but it depends on the needs of the particular store." '

What is the problem?

[weeal]

i wouldnt dare to do that if i chose to work in another country, maybe i just dont have strong enough beliefs but hey youve got to fit in wherever you are, not make them change their ways to suit you

[Whickerman]

it doesn't bother the employer - fair enough. But some points. What if this is used as precedent and we get into some of the points raised by Fr Bill above?

And whilst it doesn't bother me in the least at present, if I was the one on the next checkout it'd bother the hell out of me if I had to keep moving over to do another person's job...

[THECORBYLOON]

Am I missing something here? Sainsbury's isn't objecting, the workers aren't objecting and neither are the customers so why is a big issue?

[Whickerman]

it's not a big issue, but it has the potential to be an interesting debate - I'm all for that

[VillageVicar]

Andy, I think that if it were a Ramadan issue, then the matter would be related to food in its entirety throughout the day. Remember, nothing consumed until sundown.
Having lived in the Middle East for a number of years, not once did any of my Muslim friends object to the passing of alcohol for sale. And to be honest...extremely honest..many of my Muslim friends drank more alcohol than an English teen on a Friday night! Crum...all these double standards..

Whickerman... I 'might' consider starting a thread. However, if Rowan Williams hasn't a clue on where anyone stands, it's jolly difficult to put much of it into perspective. It's so flaming complex. I have parish members who want...no, demand that I make statements from the pulpit regarding my views and I refuse to be drawn into the abyss. I'm proud to say I was a key petitioner for the first female Anglican priest in the UK and that is a struggle that still continues today.

I'm not being a wimp by any means, but my views are that the people who are screaming the loudest appear (IMHO), to be the ones who have entirely lost the plot regarding our faith as well as our spirituality. And that IS something I've espoused from the pulpit before. The most fascinating thing about it though was that afterwards, as all my LOL's (little old ladies) paraded out of the church, each said they were so glad that we were 'winning the battle.' Bless their socks, you would have thought someone had spiked their apple crumble that day! My daughter thinks most of them are snorting happy gas anyway!

I'll chew on your suggestion.. thanks for the thought! Fr. Bill

[VillageVicar]

Whickerman: just an afterthought. I have a friend who works at the tills at our local Super Tesco. She�s Muslim and with the Tesco uniform, she wears a hijab (scarf). She�s a lovely lady. I have spent many nights with her husband and family, where we�ve discussed many things. But Aisha (not her real name) has told me of some of the things people do to her and the things they call her, simply�not that she�s Muslim�they don�t know this for certain�but the assumption that she is because she wears the hijab. They shout at her to go back to where she came from. (and as she points out to me, Crawley really isn�t �that� far, so she�ll consider it.), they make oinking sounds at her, and some simply refuse to get in her queue. All of that simply because she wears a simple scarf. Crum, when my mother when through her chemotherapy, she wore a scarf as well. But just imagine what the poor till clerk might have to endure should they start ringing the bell for assistance every time they see a 4-pack rolling down the belt! The more I think about it, the greater the absurdity I see in this whole thing. But kudos to you, I�ve started next week�s homily quite early! Mon Dieu! Qu'avons-nous fait ? + Fr. Bill

[Whickerman]

Hi Fr Bill

What you describe is base ignorance, intolerance and jackboot politics. It's the result of society encouraging extremism as the only response to its ills.

BTW - there's a thread you may ne interested in giving a view on (kind of hidden in the mire of sub-sections) http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Law/Criminal/Qu estion462552.html

[naomi24]

I'm of the same opinion as you Whicker. If there are aspects of a job which someone feels unable to carry out, they should work elsewhere.

Thecorbyloon, i seems you don't want to discuss this issue, so why not just leave it to those who do?

[Reverandfunk]

its like me going to work in a bookies then saying I dont want to accept bets.

Expect the refusal to handle meat/sell copies of Nuts next

[Supernick]

I think that therehas to be an element of sense to all of this. When you apply for a job, you should be informed of all your potential responsibilities. With checkout work there is also a more obvious element of common sense, as most of us could pretty much sum up the role without having done it before. If you understand going into the job that you will be doing something that you disagree with, then you can't very well turn round and say that you're npt going to do it once you're hired.
However, if you are unable to fulfill one of the demands of your job, and the employer is happy to compensate for this then I don't see an issue. This is a privately run business, and they can employ whoever they like and the duties of their employees can be whatever they like. If all checkout staff HAVE to handle alcohol then some people won't be able to perform the job, and the staff member in this instance would be in the wrong, but if they don't as in this case then there's no debate is there?

[Oneeyedvic]

Everyone has morals and / or religious beliefs. I think it is ludicrous to smoke - but I wouldn't stop anyone buying cigarettes.

With regards the supermarkets there are two considerations which haven't been addressed.

1) This already happens with a lot with check out staff - specifically those under 18. They cannot serve alcohol so often have to ask customers to move queues or ask a supervisor to take over.

This means that in reality, the supermarkets already have a procedure for this.

2) What about if the staff member originally applied for a job as a baker which would not involve alcohol. He then got either transferred to a different role or his employer wanted him trained in a different role but accepted his limitations.

[jake-the-peg]

Reading the article carefully this looks like a single case. not a general policy throughout.

I also note it says:

Ghayasuddin Siddiqui, director of the Muslim Institute ....The fault lies with the employee who is exploiting and misusing their goodwill. ...."

This is just a stroppy employee getting more publicity than they deserve - like the BA woman who insisted on wearing her crucifix.

[jake-the-peg]

Sorry last paragraph was mine - forgot to cancel italics

[ruby27]

VilliageVicar

"Sadly, our nation, if not our world, is imploding into its own pathological obsessions with political correctness".

Sorry to hear that, but its not the case everywhere. I think the world faces some much bigger problems than issues of PC.

Besides my take on the PC debate is very different, as I consider it a good thing.

This doesn't appear to be a problem for any of those concerned reading the report. It looks like Sainsbury's has decided to accommodate the wishes of some employees, surely Sainsbury's is entitled to make that decision. Presumably Sainsbury's has some HR policies that would respond if other employees felt unfairly treated.