Death Row

[Coldicote]

I know some people agree with the death penalty and others don't, but the American way of keeping criminals on 'death row', sometimes for very many years, seems like gruesome mental torture. Life imprisonment would be decent by comparison? What do other ABERs think?

[wildwood]

It would indeed be terrible to be on death row, but they are not there for shoplifting. I prefer to reserve my sympathy for the family of their victims.

The death penalty doesn't work? Ofcourse it does, it is 100% effective!
The reason it is not very effective as a deterrent is that because of the bleeding hearts brigade less than 0.1% of the criminals sentenced to death in the USA are actually put to death.

This filth of Society does not care who they hurt and wouldn't blink for one second to kill one of their victims to steal their possessions or indeed just because they looked at them the wrong way.

[MrsT]

They should dispatch them quicker but I think the lgal process takes forever on appeal after appeal and ultimately to the governor.

I agree with wildwood, the disseneters claim it's not a deterrent, ok not 100% but if they new they would be dead within the year, as was often the case in the UK then that would deter most. If you need further evidence, look up how many murders there where in 1960, then look up how may there where in 2006. They don't all make the news now for christ sake!

[China Doll]

If it was 100% effective it would work as a deterrent and America would have no crime for which the punishment is the death penalty.

[Whickerman]

Kill 'em quick. You're right MrsT.

that would definitely make sire there's no cases of successful appeal, like the following:
"Concerns about the death penalty were heightened by the decision in March by Gov. George Ryan of Illinois, a Republican, to declare a moratorium on executions in his state after 13 men on death row there were cleared by new evidence." (DNA evidence cleared them).

Or the 7% US prisoners on death row (on average) found innocent when their case is examined further - (Source: NY Times webpage)

Some further reading:
http://www.truthinjustice.org/

In my opinion, and it is just an opinion, I'm no lawyer, politician or social campaigner, so long as there's a remote risk that one innocent person can be wrongly convicted, the death penalty must be abolished.

[Loosehead]

that's the point china, no one says it's a 100% deterrent. It is however a deterrent for most.

I read a book by Sid Dernley, an assistant hang man, and they where usually hanged within a few weeks of the verdict in the UK. No doubt innocents have been hanged but how many innocents are murdered every day because of lack of an effective deterrent?

Personally though I think if life meant life then I'd commute my opinion of capital punishment.

[chakka35]

Sympathy for the victim, which all right-minded people feel, is not an argument in favour of capital punishment. The arguments against it are:

1. It is surely shocking that the state in all its majesty should descend to the same level as the murderer by decreeing that the murderer will be killed in cold blood at a certain time on a certain date. If that argument leaves you cold, there is no point in my pursuing it.

2. CP achieves nothing except to rid the world of some very nasty people, so what is so special about murder? Why don�t we kill rapists, child abusers, persistent wife-beaters and the like?
It is not a deterrent to murder. At no time in history, in no country, has anyone produced evidence that CP deters murder. It is for those who claim that it does to produce the evidence. So far they have failed.

3. �An eye for an eye� is a silly argument which we do not use in any other part of our legal system.

4. What happens when we find that we have killed innocent people? In 1975 alone in this country we would have hanged 10 innocent people: the Birmingham Six and the Guildford Four. And there are a great many others who are now seen to be not guilty but who would have been killed legally by us.

By all means let us mourn with the victims and despise the murderers. But not to the extent of sinking into barbarity as a result of our emotions.

[123everton]

I feel that one of the downfalls of discussing the history of the death penalty in this country is the failure to realise how few murderers were actually executed, for example there was a convicted child killer on the Titanic (she threw her baby out of a train window).
The evidence for the success of the death penalty is seen daily by the random acts of casual violence perpetrated throughout the country today some people nowadays are'nt happy to leave it at just a kicking they've got to near kill you (although abroad look at the Martin Georgiov case) this attitude is commonplace, look at the gangsters killing each on the streets reguarly, look at the muggers and burglars the level of violence that they're prepared to use, stealing cars with violence I've even read several stories of mothers being held up by muggers putting knives to their babys' throats! I'd fcuking strangle them myself cheerfully, God forgive me.
The only alternative to the death penalty is for life to mean life, no remission, no weekend leave. Perhaps that might work, but I doubt it, sad though that is.

[Oneeyedvic]

Six countries (China, Iran, Pakistan, Iraq, Sudan and the United States) account for 91 percent of the reported world total number of executions. Of 1,591 confirmed executions in 25 countries worldwide, at least 1,010 people were executed in China during 2006.

China has a death sentence process which takes less than one year and is often done in months.

Murder rates are as follows (per 100,000 population):


China: 2.12 (last available 1997)
Iran: 2.93 (2004)
Pakistan: 6.86 (2002)
Iraq: 12 (1974)
US: 5.9 (2004)

Compare this to the UK: 2.03 and you will see that capital punishment is hardly a deterrent.

[123everton]

Alot of murders though are downgraded to manslaughter, a man in Stockport was kicked to death by a gang one of them has pleaded guilty to manslaughter, but they are all being tried (rightly) for murder.
A 17 year old girl was murdered by her ex boyfriend when she tried to finish with him, he'd been out less than a year for killing his previous girlfriend (manslaughter) he was 21!
I'm sorry Vic (it pains me to say it) but I don't see the options anymore I deal with well over a thousand people a week, I've seen a lad getting a perfectly good hiding by some fella only for another bloke nothing to do with him jump up and start kicking kicking him in the head, a work colleague over 10 years ago got booted all over Rice Lane (over 20p) and a perfect stranger set his dog on him (broken nose, broken cheeekbone, broken collar bone, broken arm, I swear he was trying to kill him) I could tell you many more similar stories that I've seen with my own eyes. Look at that fella in London (satelite engineer) stabbed by some arse hole.
If he knew he could hang for that he'd have thought twice.
Anthony Walker would most certainly be alive today if we still had the death penalty, these people care only for themselves.
Hanratty went crying to the gallows (protesting his innocence) Paul Foot(?) blamed the victims wife in a book!!? He was guilty, guilty, guilty proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
Never an apology, never an ounce of regret for the hurt caused to those people, a woman raped and put in a wheel chair.
When life means life then I'll agree

[anshi46]

Thankyou Chakka 35, those are my feelings exactly. Someone has to carry out the sentence, do we then execute him for murder etc. etc, etc, it would never end. It is all still murder, and unless you actually see the murder done, how do you know who did it, there are too many unanswered questions.

[jojojojoanne]

Obviously as mentioned life doesn't mean life in this country. If you knew you were going to die or would never be free, would you live to prolong the inevitable?

[Oneeyedvic]

Everton - do you really think that someone who beats someone up (in the examples given) has the cognitive thought process that goes:

1) I am going to beat the bloke up as he is looking at me thte wrong way
2) If I get caught I will probably get around 7 years and be out in 4.

If you think that having capital punishment changes (2) to:

2) If I get caught, I may get killed myself - better not do it

then fair enough.

Personally, I think that the majority of people that commit crimes:

a) do not think that they will get caught
b) Do not think about the consequences of their actions because of (a)

[chakka35]

123everton, I understand your feelings but merely saying that CP would have deterred the dreadful things you talk about is not enough. You must produce the evidence, and no-one has done so yet.

And repeating "guilty" like that in the case of Hanratty proves nothing. I have the utmost sympathy with, and admiration for, Valerie Storey, but she never identified Hanratty at the time however much she now, understandably, claims that he was the man.

I acknowledge your passion, everton, but it does not contribute to the debate.

[123everton]

D.N.A. evidence proved Hanrattys' guilt in the end.
If you look at the Walker case, Barton and Taylor buried an axe into that lads head. Common sense tells you that that's going to kill him.
Look at the Manchester case, the man was down on the ground, helpless, they did'nt have to keep on kicking him but if they knew that if they killed him they'd swing 1 or 2 would step back and walk away which if you understand or seen the way gangs act in a confrontation (I have) then you'll know that when they start to disperse the whole dynamic changes.
I see this sh1t most months the only people they care about are themselves. Barton and Taylor for instance do nothing but cry in prison that this murder has ruined their lives?!
Poor them, did'nt do Anthony walker any favours.
Another kid stabbed to death in London tonight (26 this year apparently) you would'nt carry one for protection if you used it you might hang.
I'm curious as to how many manslaughters there were in Britain this year? And what effect it would have on statistics.
The one thing I can't replicate on this site is the look in a persons eyes when their committing these offences, you never forget it. The one thing I can't replicate on this site is the level of sadism these gangs aspire too when they identify a victim (I know people thus afflicted).
A lad in Fazackerley killed someone in his car in Dorset (no licence etc.) came out shrugged his shoulders thought no more of it, they don't care.
I saw a programme (a while ago) a gang of lads beat some fella up and then set fire to him, for a laugh.
There is in this country a criminal class emerging for whom prison is just a change of address.
I've met them.

[MrsT]

I notice chakka and co you have not explained why there where so many more murders in 2006 as there where in 1960.

[Quinlad]

Far from having any deterrent effect, the death penalty actually has a brutalizing effect.

In the US, states without the death penalty have lower homicide rates that states with the death penalty. During the last 20 years, the homicide rate in states with the death penalty has been 48 percent to 101 percent higher than in states without the death penalty.

Ten of the 12 states without capital punishment have homicide rates below the national average, whereas half of the states with capital punishment have homicide rates above.

Ooh, what else? Homicide rate in the US in 1999 was 5.7 per 100,000 population, while in Canada, which abolished the death penalty in 1976, the rate was only 1.8.

The US has a murder rate that is more that three times that of many of European countries that have banned capital punishment.

Again, I'm not sure Mrs T is being serious when she asks why the murder rate has gone up. Given that it's simple to show that CP has no deterrant effect, why not look at other factors - the increase in population, the fragmentation away from a homogenous community, the higher number of fire arms, the increase in the use and sale of drugs? Or do they not count because they get in the way of your argument?

Oneeyedvic hits the nail on the head for me. One of the things I find almost frightening about this debate is the mesmerising inability of people to use even the simplest reverse psychology.

The idea that a potential killer would weigh up the pros and cons and decide that he's not fine with execution
but can easily cope with 20 years in prison is just ludicrous. But still people come out with it.

[Theland]

Surely if there were more Police on the streets, and the chances of being arrested for ANY crime were considerably higher than now, then that in itself would be a deterrent?

Everton - is your job associated with the law, victims of crime etc? I know Rice Lane - went to school there. What part of Walton you from?

[Oneeyedvic]

Of course the other problem (if you believe that the criminal thinks through the course of actions) is:

1) I have just raped this woman
2) She may identify me
3) May as well kill her - the sentence is no different for rape or murder - this way there is no way of her identifying me.

[Coldicote]

This subject has certainly drawn a lot of response and thank you all for your interest. The impression I have is that if life imprisonment meant life, then most would regard it as an appropriate punishment.
The 'death row' website certainly makes chilling reading: http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/deathrow.htm