Only By Under The Table Means Would This...
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The British are unemployable
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles /news/news.html?in_article_id=507914&in_page_i d=1770
Is this Hotel chief racist against British workers? He would have never been allowed to make remarks such as this against any othe nationallity.
As regards to his statement "The people who we've had from central Europe are the best source of labour this industry has had for a hundred years".
Could he mean perhaps they are also he cheapest, at todays prices?
Is this Hotel chief racist against British workers? He would have never been allowed to make remarks such as this against any othe nationallity.
As regards to his statement "The people who we've had from central Europe are the best source of labour this industry has had for a hundred years".
Could he mean perhaps they are also he cheapest, at todays prices?
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what does he mean over 15 hours their benefit stops? I interview people and they all say they need 16 hours to get the WTC and CTC elements.
And it is illegal under employment legislation for anyone to have to work over 40 hours a week, to volunteer is one thing, plus any hours over (I Think) 41 hours should be paid at time and a half, though not 100% if those figs are spot on.
He's talking rubbish
And it is illegal under employment legislation for anyone to have to work over 40 hours a week, to volunteer is one thing, plus any hours over (I Think) 41 hours should be paid at time and a half, though not 100% if those figs are spot on.
He's talking rubbish
Mr Cotton does have a point.
As regular AB-ers will know, I firmly believe it is utter lunacy to import vast numbers of foreign workers when we have (according to the estimate you use) between 1.6m and 5m people of working age resident here and drawing some sort of benefit.
Nonetheless, people in Mr Cotton�s industry have businesses to run and many of the problems he outlines are very true. The bosses of these industries are simply making best use of the resources that have become available to them.
I do not believe that the newcomers have, in general, taken jobs away from British workers. I know there are examples of people who�d like a job but cannot find one. But there vast numbers of people who are, as Mr Cotton describes, simply unwilling to work for low pay because the benefits system is so attractive. You must ask yourself how can a Polish worker come to a foreign country and find work readily when youngsters who live here have to make do with so-called Jobseekers� allowance?
Unless this issue is addressed and people start losing their benefits when work is readily available, the situation will perpetuate.
Whether Mr Cotton would get away with running down any other nationality so readily is debatable. The answer really is for the Brits not to give him the ammunition to do so, and at the moment I believe they are.
As regular AB-ers will know, I firmly believe it is utter lunacy to import vast numbers of foreign workers when we have (according to the estimate you use) between 1.6m and 5m people of working age resident here and drawing some sort of benefit.
Nonetheless, people in Mr Cotton�s industry have businesses to run and many of the problems he outlines are very true. The bosses of these industries are simply making best use of the resources that have become available to them.
I do not believe that the newcomers have, in general, taken jobs away from British workers. I know there are examples of people who�d like a job but cannot find one. But there vast numbers of people who are, as Mr Cotton describes, simply unwilling to work for low pay because the benefits system is so attractive. You must ask yourself how can a Polish worker come to a foreign country and find work readily when youngsters who live here have to make do with so-called Jobseekers� allowance?
Unless this issue is addressed and people start losing their benefits when work is readily available, the situation will perpetuate.
Whether Mr Cotton would get away with running down any other nationality so readily is debatable. The answer really is for the Brits not to give him the ammunition to do so, and at the moment I believe they are.
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dot - people can work over 40 hours a week and it doesn't have to be at an enhanced rate. A person cannot be forced to work more than 48 hours per week, but can do if he or she wishes.
And I agree with the man in the article. The British take no pride in working in the service industries and have a bad attitude - on the whole. There are always exceptions.
And I agree with the man in the article. The British take no pride in working in the service industries and have a bad attitude - on the whole. There are always exceptions.
Oh, and I forgot to mention that this phenomenon is one of the great �advantages� of our membership of the EU, and in particular of the lenient attitude our Government has adopted towards workers from new member states.
Those who vigorously support such membership and policies or (more importantly as far as this issue goes) those who think it does not matter or who cannot be bothered to think about it at all should think on. Is it really for the benefit of British people that bosses are choosing to employ people who are, effectively, depressing the pay of British workers?
If there was not such a readily available pool of imported labour they may be forced to pay slightly higher rates and maybe, just maybe, some of those on benefits might be encouraged to work.
Those who vigorously support such membership and policies or (more importantly as far as this issue goes) those who think it does not matter or who cannot be bothered to think about it at all should think on. Is it really for the benefit of British people that bosses are choosing to employ people who are, effectively, depressing the pay of British workers?
If there was not such a readily available pool of imported labour they may be forced to pay slightly higher rates and maybe, just maybe, some of those on benefits might be encouraged to work.
From a customer point of view employing foreign workers does not always work, for instance I regulary go to a certain caravan park which was always staffed by British workers. Last year all bar staff and cleaners were foreign most could not speak or spoke little english, this meant you could not have a joke or friendly chat with the bar staff and those who used the cleaners could not make them understand if work was not being done properly.
Result people went off-site to have a drink, great for the local British taxi firm, but near empty entertainment rooms for holidaymakers who didn't know how to get to the local pubs, or drank in their own caravans.
The result was no holiday atmosphere and low takings and lots of complaints. Not expecting the bosses to take any notice or go back to employing British
Result people went off-site to have a drink, great for the local British taxi firm, but near empty entertainment rooms for holidaymakers who didn't know how to get to the local pubs, or drank in their own caravans.
The result was no holiday atmosphere and low takings and lots of complaints. Not expecting the bosses to take any notice or go back to employing British
Quite right, sandbach.
Of course what is more likely to happen is that the bar and/or the site will go out of business and the owner will blame foreign package tours, the smoking ban, Tescos or anything else he can think of except the one main cause that you have identified.
I too have come across problems such as these. I recently went to a hotel for lunch. The hotel (which was in an idyllic rural location) advertised itself as the �ultimate English experience�. I asked what the soup of the day was and the very pleasant lass who was serving us was completely unable to understand me. So deep was her confusion that she had to call the manager. He (also of Eastern European origin) managed to understand me � but only just. Needless to say I will not be patronising that particular establishment again.
This is the sort of occurrence which can do enormous harm to the economy. I refuse to struggle to make myself understood when speaking English in England � particularly when enjoying �the ultimate English experience�.
Only when customers vote with their feet will businesses understand their feelings.
Of course what is more likely to happen is that the bar and/or the site will go out of business and the owner will blame foreign package tours, the smoking ban, Tescos or anything else he can think of except the one main cause that you have identified.
I too have come across problems such as these. I recently went to a hotel for lunch. The hotel (which was in an idyllic rural location) advertised itself as the �ultimate English experience�. I asked what the soup of the day was and the very pleasant lass who was serving us was completely unable to understand me. So deep was her confusion that she had to call the manager. He (also of Eastern European origin) managed to understand me � but only just. Needless to say I will not be patronising that particular establishment again.
This is the sort of occurrence which can do enormous harm to the economy. I refuse to struggle to make myself understood when speaking English in England � particularly when enjoying �the ultimate English experience�.
Only when customers vote with their feet will businesses understand their feelings.
The headline in out local paper last week, was that we have a "shortage of skilled workers," as Eastern Europeans are not keeping up their numbers where I live.(Southport)
Looking at the finer points of the article, what it actually said, was that Poles etc often take work of a more mediocre level than their abilities would reflect in their own country, so the new Hotels that are springing up in Southport will have to employ as waiters, chefs, maids and kitchen staff either students or less qualified workers. Presumably (by the tone of the article,) it means that the British staff would be working at their true level, whilst Polish staff would be more intelligent and yet working in a less coveted job here: thereby working harder but with more common sense and abilities and more importantly less pay.
Many of the Poles who live here are packed into old victorian houses, which they rent and as in comparison to their own country the wages are higher, they think they are getting a good deal.
If they bought houses, lived as one family and had to pay the not-shared council tax, they would soon see their minimum wage as less wonderful and/or indeed livable!
Looking at the finer points of the article, what it actually said, was that Poles etc often take work of a more mediocre level than their abilities would reflect in their own country, so the new Hotels that are springing up in Southport will have to employ as waiters, chefs, maids and kitchen staff either students or less qualified workers. Presumably (by the tone of the article,) it means that the British staff would be working at their true level, whilst Polish staff would be more intelligent and yet working in a less coveted job here: thereby working harder but with more common sense and abilities and more importantly less pay.
Many of the Poles who live here are packed into old victorian houses, which they rent and as in comparison to their own country the wages are higher, they think they are getting a good deal.
If they bought houses, lived as one family and had to pay the not-shared council tax, they would soon see their minimum wage as less wonderful and/or indeed livable!
i employ a polish worker , he impressed me in the interview when set against his british counterparts, and he has not let me down at all, my customers like him , he does a good job now he has been trained and nothing is too much for him , he gets paid exactly the same as my other workers which is about 18k a year , he is a pleasure to know and a credit to his country, he is hungry to learn and eager to better himself , So perhaps we should not tar them all with the same brush ......
You�re quite right too, tufty. Most of the Polish workers who come here are eager to work and get on. I�ve not come across any who want to loaf around and scrounge. There are, however, language problems with many of them and this is evident especially in the hospitality industry. As both sandbach99 and I have related, there are establishments where the entire staff struggles with English and it is very difficult for both they and their customers to do business easily.
I don�t blame employers for employing them, though some of the less scrupulous are using the opportunity to depress their wage bill. However I believe some bosses would do better to try to ensure they have a mix of both foreign and British workers so that there is adequate support in the workforce. But as you have found, the newcomers often outshine their British counterparts in many respects.
I don�t blame them for coming here to better themselves. They see the opportunity to earn five to ten times the amount they could take in Poland and nobody should criticise them for that. Enterprising Brits have done the same in recent years, especially by working in the Middle East.
However, taxpayers in the Middle East do not pay up to one in five of their working age population to sit at home watching the racing or boozing in the pub every day whilst the employers claim that they cannot find unskilled labour. That is what we�re doing here and it is that to which I object. We would not need any imported labour if those not working and drawing benefits and who are quite capable of working were made to earn their keep. There would then not be any vacancies for the Poles to fill, they would not want to come here, and these issues would not arise.
I don�t blame employers for employing them, though some of the less scrupulous are using the opportunity to depress their wage bill. However I believe some bosses would do better to try to ensure they have a mix of both foreign and British workers so that there is adequate support in the workforce. But as you have found, the newcomers often outshine their British counterparts in many respects.
I don�t blame them for coming here to better themselves. They see the opportunity to earn five to ten times the amount they could take in Poland and nobody should criticise them for that. Enterprising Brits have done the same in recent years, especially by working in the Middle East.
However, taxpayers in the Middle East do not pay up to one in five of their working age population to sit at home watching the racing or boozing in the pub every day whilst the employers claim that they cannot find unskilled labour. That is what we�re doing here and it is that to which I object. We would not need any imported labour if those not working and drawing benefits and who are quite capable of working were made to earn their keep. There would then not be any vacancies for the Poles to fill, they would not want to come here, and these issues would not arise.
I imagine one of the reasons they come here is to learn English. Of course they will struggle at first, but they will improve, because they want to do well and get on. How many English workers would trouble to learn Polish in order to get a job, let alone change countries? Would you choose a committed and motivated worker or one who just didn't care? Forced to choose between the Bulgarian who fixed my computer last year promptly and cheaply, and the Brit who vanished halfway through a paving job, never to be seen again, I know who I'd go for.
Sandbach, you say employers won't care if all their guests buzz off elsewhere. Oh yes they will. They have no interest in going bust. The problem may be (I don't know) that the rate they charge guests doesn't bring in much money so they can only afford foreign workers. They could raise the rates but the well-known British aversion to paying for anything might then mean that they'd lose guests anyway. This is often a problem for managements, and it appears they've chosen one way to tackle it. Might work, might not.
Sandbach, you say employers won't care if all their guests buzz off elsewhere. Oh yes they will. They have no interest in going bust. The problem may be (I don't know) that the rate they charge guests doesn't bring in much money so they can only afford foreign workers. They could raise the rates but the well-known British aversion to paying for anything might then mean that they'd lose guests anyway. This is often a problem for managements, and it appears they've chosen one way to tackle it. Might work, might not.
Jno The caravan site has about 800 to 900 static caravans mostly privately owned, all of which pay site fees amounting to over �2 million per year, plus extra from touring vans and caravans sub-let to holiday makers.
Most staff who work the bars, cleaners etc live in provided accommodation ie caravans, they have to pay for this accommodation and really only get pocket money. So it should make little difference who is employed.
The stupid thing is that some of the senior managers, sales, shop. retaurant, go off-site to drink, when asked why they give the same reasons as us. When asked why they don't mention the problems to the bosses they say they do but the bosses say there is no problem
At the end of the season none were making any effort to try out any english they had learnt if they had learnt any.
I think the big bosses would be qiite happy to close the entertainment bar down and just keep the retaurant/bar open,
Most staff who work the bars, cleaners etc live in provided accommodation ie caravans, they have to pay for this accommodation and really only get pocket money. So it should make little difference who is employed.
The stupid thing is that some of the senior managers, sales, shop. retaurant, go off-site to drink, when asked why they give the same reasons as us. When asked why they don't mention the problems to the bosses they say they do but the bosses say there is no problem
At the end of the season none were making any effort to try out any english they had learnt if they had learnt any.
I think the big bosses would be qiite happy to close the entertainment bar down and just keep the retaurant/bar open,
I'm glad you've noticed the civility of this thread, figure, and enjoyed the debate.
I, too, have read the responses with interest and, as you say, everybody has seemed to be able to provide a different angle without the debate degenerating.
I have made a point in the past of deliberately avoiding threads such as this because I know how it usually ends up. I don�t have the inclination to become involved in meaningless slanging matches.
It shows that reasoned debate is possible on AB. I did notice that one or two of �the usual suspects� have chosen not to take part, so perhaps that�s why we managed it on this occasion!
I, too, have read the responses with interest and, as you say, everybody has seemed to be able to provide a different angle without the debate degenerating.
I have made a point in the past of deliberately avoiding threads such as this because I know how it usually ends up. I don�t have the inclination to become involved in meaningless slanging matches.
It shows that reasoned debate is possible on AB. I did notice that one or two of �the usual suspects� have chosen not to take part, so perhaps that�s why we managed it on this occasion!
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