Tally Ho!

[Elfin]

Oh dear. What an embarassing and shamefully un-British display at Westminster today by the allegedly civilised pro-hunt demonstrators. Have they done their futile campaign any good or is that the final nail in the coffin...?

[RogerK]

Bernardo - If the city-dwelling folks living their sanitised pre-packed lives stop poking their noses into what happens in the country the country folk will gladly vanish back to their hovels and stop bothering you.

[Elfin]

It's being banned because it is cruel. Tradition is no reason to allow something to continue - after all, each law passed ever since governments came about has changed the way things were. How far do we want to go back? I didn't intend this thread to turn into a Blair-bashing exercise - I for one will always be more comfortable with a Labour government over a Tory one simply because I have a memory... I actually live in the country but am anti-hunting with dogs. I also believe in democracy. A democratic process has taken place and those for whom the decision didn't go their way can't hack it. I don't believe that it is a class issue at all (not all hunt people are posh - moreso they are part of the tiny pockets of the feudal system which still exist and they are happy with it). The inflammatory attitude of pro lobbyists in the run-up to this demo would begin to suggest, however, that they regard themselves as rather more important than the majority - important enough to think it's ok to buck the system and act outside the law (they said they'd carry on hunting regardless of the vote). Finally (on the town vs country dwellers issue), if the pro-hunting lot pour scorn on others (the majority) for not understanding or supporting them in their bid to save their way of life, it would be interesting to see if they stood up to be counted in support of the miners, steelworkers and shipbuilders when they needed them...

[RogerK]

The dockers, miners etc. fought their own (often violent) battles much like the pro-hunting folk are now - no difference as I see it. When one minority group is legislated against we don't automatically expect all others to support them (where were the gay rights activists or CND when the miners or dockers needed them? - sounds daft doesn't it?) These country people are seeing their communities die because of low wages and high unemployment and high house prices driven up by city dwellers buying housing as holiday homes or playing at living in the country but not actually contributing towards their community. Being forced out of a job by the same people who are killing their communities is the final straw.

[Elfin]

Yep, I see what you're saying but the point I was making re the miners, dockers etc was that class has nothing to do with it. The problems of not contributing to a community exists all over - it is not exclusively confined to country folk. As a bit of an aside, I have an ancestor who was an executioner, employed by the state. Clearly many people made their living in that industry in those days, but times change. Someone always loses out. They have to learn to adapt. I have a lot of sympathy for farmers, living on a farm estate and seeing what goes on. However, I'm in a pocket of the old feudal system as I described earlier and reside in the peasant's accommodation - the estate itself is owned by the landed geantry, who indidentally own a 7 figure acreage over several counties. It could therefore be argued that the increased population these days have to live somewhere. The millions of acres of the UK owned by such Lords etc are not available for housing for the common man, so the population concentrates in towns and cities, forcing people to engage with that culture. There are a loads of town/city dwellers who would give their right arm to be able to live in a small country community AND engage fully with it.

[RogerK]

We agree on a lot, 'all things must change' but it doesn't stop people getting upset about it. Where I live there are few very large farms / estates but the small traditional family farms are slowly being gobbled up into larger more commercial enterprises (its the only way to make a living at it). We have high unemployment, few well paid jobs and one of the worst average wage to average house price ratios in Europe. I applaud anyone wanting to move into such a community and integrate with it (most folk find halving their income and increasing their mortgage bit much to take). On the class thing, if you take a traditional working class organisation like a football club you will find the members are ordinary folk but its run by the affluent / upper classes - so are most hunts outside of areas like Berkshire. The price of a days hunting, including hire of a horse, with my local hunt is about what you'd pay to go and see a premiership team play away. It's not the preserve of the upper classes its just that its a passtime they find more attractive.

[undercovers]

if we don't support it we can always elect a new government that will have a different attitude, I just don't think a party will step forward with that as an election promise. Regarding taxes your argument is flawed, of course we don't want to pay more tax, but we also want our road maintained, our health service and schooling free etc. any government must make the decisions about what they buy and how they will raise the money for us because we are not in a position to make those sort of large scale decision independently. If how ever you can come up with a way of not charged taxes and providing the services and support we expect I shall definately vote for you (unless you also legalise fox hunting lol)

[Elfin]

Agree with you RogerK. By integrating with the country community, you are assuming that you have to have a rural job. Many people now have to go into town to achieve the wage they need and they don't always buy their homes either. So in that respect a balance can be achieved. I wouldn't buy a home anywhere in this country at the moment - it's outrageous! Your comments about small family farms getting eaten up by larger commercial enterprises are indicative of the way things are all over - think corner shop vs superstore. It's worth noting that there are some "phoney" hunt supporters who miss the finer points of the debate. I used to work with a girl who had a horse and mixed with the horsey set. She was avidly pro-hunt and would pour scorn on the townies - yet she actually lived in suburban Watford and spent most of her time rattling on about designer clothes and furniture and how much her house was worth now. Commercial hell! Sheesh!

[Drewhound]

undercovers your last post above is a very persuasive argument but those same represntatives have decreed the speed laws we have, as several million people are prosecuted for breaking that law every year should we not impose more and more stringent penalties until the law is obeyed?