The hostage

[slimjim]

I only hope this posting isn't too late. Tony Blair and his Government have made plenty of noises to say that they are doing everything they can to secure his release. What exactly are they doing? Do they really care? Is Tony losing any sleep over it? Yes, I know you could argue that he shouldn't have been in Iraq in the first place but we're supposed to be helping them rebuild their country. So why don't we protect the people who are helping the Iraqis? My father is the same age as Mr Bigley and I really feel for them. But I would be so angry at the Government if I was them.

[jills]

Regardless of what you think of Blair (and I am not a fan of, or voter for him) you cannot seriously suggest that he would be unmoved by the situation, or the heart wrenching appeal from the kidnap victims family. Sadly, to give in to the demands would mean that every other western civilian in the region would be a target for hostage takers as of tomorrow, and the situation would spiral further out of control. I can absolutely sympathise with their plight, and would probably act and feel very similarly if it were my father/brother. However, he did go there through choice, to make money, and would have been well aware of the risks he was taking, yet he still chose to go - knowing what he may put his family through. This morning the news seems more positive, and I am hoping that this will have a happy outcome for the UK citizen, although sadly it seems too late for the 2nd US hostage.

[AB Editor]

cruthinboy's post has been deleted. For the record, this is not because s/he accuses me of "ignorance", but for making offensive comments about a fellow user. This site is moderated and offensive or inappropriate content is removed.

[cruthinboy]

I didnt make offensive comments about another user - I merely said I found something they said reprehensible in the same way as others clearly found Elipledge's conribution unwelcome. I find it very sad that my illusions about this board as a forum for people to air their views without killing each other have been shattered. I thank you for allowing me to contribute my thoughts up till now, but feel thre is little point in participating further. I also find it strange that all Elipledge's contributions to other sections - especially his informative postings on pop music have been deleted.

[cruthinboy]

I accused you of ignorance only because you banned someone who objects to Islam on the grounds of "racism" - it's not - it might be "religious bigotry" but it's not racism any more than disliking members of the Conservative Party, or people who support Aresnal is.

[Jamie Lewis]

What's Tony Blair got to do with it? He went out there to do a job knowing full well the risks of doing so. On his head be it - if you pardon the pun.

[cruthinboy]

Sorry, but I couldn't stay away! I do find a lot of your postings here uite heatless - refrence to the unfortunate hostages earning lots of money, knowing the risks etc. Using that last line - and I fear a deletion coming on here - a woman walking home the worse for wear at 3 am on a saturday morning "knows the risks". Please don't misinterpret this ! I am simply using what I see as a similar argument. And what about an Asian youth walking past, when he could walk the other way, what he knows to be a gang of racist thugs - does he "know the risks"? Come off it, we're talking about people having their heads sawn off on camera - how can any of you not be appalled???

[slimjim]

Well I didn't mean to stir up a storm amongst ourselves particularly in relation to Elipledge (a good contributor who must be allowed to stay) and cruthinboy (who has said some of the most sensible things on this thread). I find Jamie Lewis's posting the most offensive of all.

[cruthinboy]

Why thank you slimjim! I think it's a shame that this "racist" axe is so readily wielded over people's heads - I'm sorry that sounds like a dreadful joke given current events but let me assure me it was completely unitentional. Incidentally, I recall elipldge's postings on music displaying a fair knowledge of soul music - odd for a "convicted" racist!

[jills]

cruthinboy....I understand your use of a similar argument, and you may well be correct in the examples you site. We all weigh up risks in life, and take chances at times with our behaviour. This does not mean that anyone 'deserves' to have anything violent, cruel or frightening happen to them, and I would never say that they did. What this man faces in Iraq is truly horrific. However, I think many people (tho I can't speak for them of course) would find it hard to understand why this man went there to work, with all the risks involved, especially when he has a family who clearly love him dearly and would of course wish him safe. That he knowingly put himself in a position of high dangerous makes the situation no less sad, and I didn't mean to sound heartless, tho I can see that it may come across as that. I have to say, I do agree that Jamie Lewis's comment is offensive. At best it's humour in bad taste. Don't think I want to pardon that pun Jamie. The UK hostages family made a direct appeal to Tony Blair, as a man in a position fo power who may be able to help(or weren't you aware of that?)....so apart from anything else, THAT is what he has to do with it.

[cruthinboy]

Why can't we call the kidnappers what they are which are vile, racist if you want, hate-filled thugs and cowards. They abducted some French journalists I believe - hold on a moment France disapproved the invasion of Iraq - no matter, the excuse then was the ban on Muslim schoolgirls wearing scarves in France. These people just hate Westerners/Whites whatever you want to call us.

[Oneeyedvic]

I agree, the terrorists involved are racist, thugs & cowards - what is your point though? Should we be able to be racist just becasuse they are? I do agree that some of the cutting that goes on here is (to me) unacceptable - no offense ed. I would also point out that although I did reply to the fact that I found Elipledge's comments offensive, I didnot report him and I do think that anybody should be entitled to their own view. I don't think anything is gained by expelling him and something is lost (ie free speech). I can't condone racism (see the other thread in news) but what is the point in denying it exists. If Elipledge's post was allowed to stay, although offensive, if he cannot give logical statements then he is the only person who looks stupid. Reasoned debate is the key to democracy not censorship.

[bernardo]

With reference to Another Dave's point about British governments giving in to terrorist demands in the 1970s:In the early days of plane-hijackings and international Middle-East terrorism in the 1970s and early 1980s, some governments made the mistake of giving in to the demands of the terrorists, with the result that it only encouraged them to do it more. Even as late as the mid 1980s, Algeria was notorious as the place where hijackers wanted to go, because they tended to let them go at the end of the process.

When a number of western hostages were being held in Lebanon during the Civil War in the late 1980s, the hostages were regularly traded and swapped between different groups. When the French government covertly paid a ransom for the release of some of their hostages, the market price for selling hostages from one group to another went up almost overnight from $500,000 to $8,000,000; and the rate of kidnappings escalated. It is for this reason that it is vtal not to give in to the kidnappers' demands.

I fully expect that Kenneth Bigley will be murdered in the next day or two, but if any concessions were made to secure his release then it would only end up in even more Westerners being kidnapped and killed in the future.

[bernardo]

The point I was making was that the need not to give in to terrorists was not obvious in the 1970s in the way that it is now, so we should not necessarily condemn the then British Government for what it did in the case of Leila Khaled with the benefit of hindsight.

[cruthinboy]

Oneeyedvic - "I can't condone racism" - I can only say again disliking/hating/advocating mass slaughter of Muslims while unacceptable is NOT racist - Islam, as Muslims themselves like to boast, is the fastest growing religion in the West - its adherents are black, brown, white, yellow - it is, like Christianity, a globalist, universal religion which claims the right to prosletyse across the globe. And do you honestly think "reasoned debate" is the answer to the clash between West and Islam. Okay, reasoned debate + the odd banning of people who obstinately refuse to toe the line may help us approach a consensus on Answerbank, but you cannot debate with religious fundamentalists whose whole argument (if you'll forgive the contradiction!) is to utterly reject debate in favour of Divine Revelation.