50 Years Ago When Harold Wilson Was In...
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~max~ will know better than any of us that the situation in parts of Northern Ireland is far from alright. It is certainly better than it was, say, ten years ago, mainly because the leaders of the principle terrorist organisation were appeased and subsumed into the �devolved government�. But it is not alright by any stretch of the meaning of the word.
Apart from the recent events, atrocities still take place there which, were they to occur on the mainland, would cause shock and horror. There is still a massive sectarian divide in the province and there are still many people prepared to perpetuate that divide with threats and violence. Much of this activity is simply not reported in the press.
Reports of the recent murders still talk about �both sides of the community� and leading Republican politicians use weasel words of condolence, carefully ducking outright condemnation.
The government in Westminster is in denial. Last Thursday the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, Sir Hugh Orde, with terrible prophesy, announced that the level of threat from dissident republican terrorism in Northern Ireland is the highest since he became chief constable seven years ago. Sinn Fein reacted predictably by suggesting that the security services were exaggerating the present terrorist threat.
However, the reaction of the Right Honourable Shaun Woodward, MP, Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whilst equally predictable, was far more telling. He suggested too that Sir Hugh was exaggerating. Quite what motive he would have for doing so was not explained. Quite why Mr Woodward (Northern Ireland Secretary for 18 months) felt he knew better that Sir Hugh (policeman for 32 years, and Chief Constable of NI for seven) was also not explained.
It could be, of course, that it might jeopardise the �Peace Process�. And we can�t have that, can we?
Apart from the recent events, atrocities still take place there which, were they to occur on the mainland, would cause shock and horror. There is still a massive sectarian divide in the province and there are still many people prepared to perpetuate that divide with threats and violence. Much of this activity is simply not reported in the press.
Reports of the recent murders still talk about �both sides of the community� and leading Republican politicians use weasel words of condolence, carefully ducking outright condemnation.
The government in Westminster is in denial. Last Thursday the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, Sir Hugh Orde, with terrible prophesy, announced that the level of threat from dissident republican terrorism in Northern Ireland is the highest since he became chief constable seven years ago. Sinn Fein reacted predictably by suggesting that the security services were exaggerating the present terrorist threat.
However, the reaction of the Right Honourable Shaun Woodward, MP, Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whilst equally predictable, was far more telling. He suggested too that Sir Hugh was exaggerating. Quite what motive he would have for doing so was not explained. Quite why Mr Woodward (Northern Ireland Secretary for 18 months) felt he knew better that Sir Hugh (policeman for 32 years, and Chief Constable of NI for seven) was also not explained.
It could be, of course, that it might jeopardise the �Peace Process�. And we can�t have that, can we?
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He suggested that the increased threat came from a newly acquired ability among dissidents to manufacure sophisticated bombs, and that their targets were likely to be police officers.
Of course he was completely wrong in that all the recent murders were carried out by snipers, not bombers, and only one of the three victims was a police officer.
Not worth listening to him really, I suppose.
Of course he was completely wrong in that all the recent murders were carried out by snipers, not bombers, and only one of the three victims was a police officer.
Not worth listening to him really, I suppose.
-- answer removed --
It never went away, there was a lull, but thats about it, and I really don't understand, given the history of the place, and whats been happening internally over the past few years, why anyone is actually surprised.
I did three tours, from 1969 to 1976, and have been back since, there are places you've always had to watch what you say, and during the 'peace', you could cut the tensions with a knife.
Whats happening now, was always going to happen, just when.
I did three tours, from 1969 to 1976, and have been back since, there are places you've always had to watch what you say, and during the 'peace', you could cut the tensions with a knife.
Whats happening now, was always going to happen, just when.
The problem is that anyone from Belfast will know someone personally who was affected by the 'troubles' or have been personally affected by the situaiton themselves and whenever one side or the other kicks off, it's very easy for the tensions that Lonnie describes to come to the fore with a vengeance.
I just hope we all keep our heads and appreciate that this is NOT the IRA/ Sinn Fein, nor need it be a return to the bad old days of all out war... we just need to deal with those responsible, and sorry to say it but the best people to do that is the Republican movement itself, not ther army or the intelligence services, who will only exacerbate the situaiton.
I just hope we all keep our heads and appreciate that this is NOT the IRA/ Sinn Fein, nor need it be a return to the bad old days of all out war... we just need to deal with those responsible, and sorry to say it but the best people to do that is the Republican movement itself, not ther army or the intelligence services, who will only exacerbate the situaiton.
Quite so, obnoxious.
Unfortunately I disagree that the Republican movement is best placed to deal with the problem. They are the last people who have either the wherewithal or, more importantly, the will to handle the dissidents.
I have been watching and listening to the senior Sinn Fein representatives over the past few days. This party has five MPs at Westminster. None has taken the Oath of Allegiance and so are not permitted to sit in the House of Commons even if they wanted to. The constituents that elected them are thus unrepresented in that House.
In between the weasel words of platitude and condolence it is plain that they are rubbing their hands with glee at the latest developments. Their aim is to remove British presence in Northern Ireland against the wishes of the overwhelming majority in the Province. They have been appeased by being granted high office in a devolved Parliament that has been (and in my opinion still is) teetering on the verge of permanent collapse. Only political vanity on the part of senior politicians in Westminster keeps it going. The Republicans� aim is ultimately to bring it down, and subsume the six counties into the Irish Republic.
These latest developments show just how fragile the �peace� in Northern Ireland is � a peace which has been bought by appeasement of terrorists. They are the last group to whom the interests and safety of the majority of British people in NI should be entrusted.
Unfortunately I disagree that the Republican movement is best placed to deal with the problem. They are the last people who have either the wherewithal or, more importantly, the will to handle the dissidents.
I have been watching and listening to the senior Sinn Fein representatives over the past few days. This party has five MPs at Westminster. None has taken the Oath of Allegiance and so are not permitted to sit in the House of Commons even if they wanted to. The constituents that elected them are thus unrepresented in that House.
In between the weasel words of platitude and condolence it is plain that they are rubbing their hands with glee at the latest developments. Their aim is to remove British presence in Northern Ireland against the wishes of the overwhelming majority in the Province. They have been appeased by being granted high office in a devolved Parliament that has been (and in my opinion still is) teetering on the verge of permanent collapse. Only political vanity on the part of senior politicians in Westminster keeps it going. The Republicans� aim is ultimately to bring it down, and subsume the six counties into the Irish Republic.
These latest developments show just how fragile the �peace� in Northern Ireland is � a peace which has been bought by appeasement of terrorists. They are the last group to whom the interests and safety of the majority of British people in NI should be entrusted.
It makes me cringe at some of the statements our politicians come out with.
This is a recent one from the Northern Ireland Secretary, at the time of the killings of the two soldiers,
'The greatest memorial to the two young soldiers will be the continuation of the peace plan'
No,No,No!!!!! the greatest memorial to the two young soldiers (and their families) will be for those murderous scum to be swiftly apprehended, tried, convicted and then given lengthy prison sentences.
This is a recent one from the Northern Ireland Secretary, at the time of the killings of the two soldiers,
'The greatest memorial to the two young soldiers will be the continuation of the peace plan'
No,No,No!!!!! the greatest memorial to the two young soldiers (and their families) will be for those murderous scum to be swiftly apprehended, tried, convicted and then given lengthy prison sentences.
Alrighty then New Judge, some very valid points but the alternative is to bring the army in in droves, go back to having your door kicked in at 3.00am etc etc etc.... I remember internment... very popular that was I must say. ... I'm sure you'd have loved it yourself where you live, could never understand why it didn't catch on on the mainland. We felt all very 'represented' when all that was going on.
You seem to think that it's possible for the Sinn Fein leadership to become overnight Westminster's darling little lads who've suddenly forgotten everything they ever believed in and now tow the "God save the Queen" line. What precisely do you think would happen if they did? Do you think they would be represnting their constituents, or that the people who elected them would ever elect them again? Of course not and then you would create a still more dangerous environment where widespread dissent gives way to violent dissent by the masses, as it used to be.
It is imho, and I have some considerable personal knowledge of this, in everyoine's best interests if we allow the Repulblican movement to maintain the status quo in the way that they know works best. To do otherwise will plunge us straight back into an all out civil war.... and no-one whose right minded wants that, we all have to give and take and ease and smooth to make sure that never happens , however unpalletable that may be to our personal ideals.
You seem to think that it's possible for the Sinn Fein leadership to become overnight Westminster's darling little lads who've suddenly forgotten everything they ever believed in and now tow the "God save the Queen" line. What precisely do you think would happen if they did? Do you think they would be represnting their constituents, or that the people who elected them would ever elect them again? Of course not and then you would create a still more dangerous environment where widespread dissent gives way to violent dissent by the masses, as it used to be.
It is imho, and I have some considerable personal knowledge of this, in everyoine's best interests if we allow the Repulblican movement to maintain the status quo in the way that they know works best. To do otherwise will plunge us straight back into an all out civil war.... and no-one whose right minded wants that, we all have to give and take and ease and smooth to make sure that never happens , however unpalletable that may be to our personal ideals.
No, obNOXious, it is certainly not straightforward.
However, if I lived in an area of Britain (say, Surrey, or Cornwall) where my fellow residents were being maimed and killed because two thirds or more of them did not support independence for that area, and if that area harboured terrorists who set out to maim and kill people in other parts of the UK because, it was thought, they were �complicit� in the UK government�s acts of suppression, I most certainly would want some strong measures (over and above normal policing) in place.
The reason why such measures did not �catch on� in Surrey or Cornwall was because those areas did not suffer from such activities.
I do not in my wildest dreams imagine the Sinn Fein leadership can behave as Westminster's darling little lads, overnight or at any other time. They hate the UK. They have no business standing for membership of its Parliament as they have no intention of representing their constituents in that forum. The party secured 24% of the votes cast in NI at the last election and captured 27% of the seats. So I would suggest that the Republican movement has no part to play in maintaining the status quo, or anything else in the Province. The body to do that is the Westminster Parliament which is supported by the overwhelming majority of the people in NI.
Nobody in their right mind wants a return to the violence of the past. Unfortunately there are some elements in that part of the UK that do not quite seem to be of sound mind. Give and take is necessary. That is exactly what the Good Friday Agreement provided � all give by the UK government (involving the release from custody of convicted murderers) and all take by the Republican movement (including the elevation of former terrorist leaders to high office). But still they are not content.
You do not give drunks the task of keeping order in the pub.
However, if I lived in an area of Britain (say, Surrey, or Cornwall) where my fellow residents were being maimed and killed because two thirds or more of them did not support independence for that area, and if that area harboured terrorists who set out to maim and kill people in other parts of the UK because, it was thought, they were �complicit� in the UK government�s acts of suppression, I most certainly would want some strong measures (over and above normal policing) in place.
The reason why such measures did not �catch on� in Surrey or Cornwall was because those areas did not suffer from such activities.
I do not in my wildest dreams imagine the Sinn Fein leadership can behave as Westminster's darling little lads, overnight or at any other time. They hate the UK. They have no business standing for membership of its Parliament as they have no intention of representing their constituents in that forum. The party secured 24% of the votes cast in NI at the last election and captured 27% of the seats. So I would suggest that the Republican movement has no part to play in maintaining the status quo, or anything else in the Province. The body to do that is the Westminster Parliament which is supported by the overwhelming majority of the people in NI.
Nobody in their right mind wants a return to the violence of the past. Unfortunately there are some elements in that part of the UK that do not quite seem to be of sound mind. Give and take is necessary. That is exactly what the Good Friday Agreement provided � all give by the UK government (involving the release from custody of convicted murderers) and all take by the Republican movement (including the elevation of former terrorist leaders to high office). But still they are not content.
You do not give drunks the task of keeping order in the pub.
The troubles during the 60's actually grew out of the civil rights movement in the north, which sought to address the massive discrepensies in the way that catholics and protestants were treated. Protestants were the police force, the local council and as such because there has been long standing bad blood between the two communities Catholics were very badly treated indeed. I was born in and grew up in West Belfast and recall a great many things I'd really rather not.... including the fire and attacks against catholics that is largely held to mark the beginning of the troubles proper.
To expect people who have lived as a community under the tyranny, and I really do not use that word lightly, of a protestant majority for a long time, to embrace the idea of Westminster solving their problems is to say the least mind numbingly naieve, but then that is often the response that one gets from people who have read a lot, and not lived the lives that they read about.
I am seeking only to point out, not whose right or wrong, because at this point that's not even really relevant, but what we ALL must do to stop a slide back to right where we started from, or possibly worse.
If you think that Westminster can cure this, then go right ahead and watch their best efforts flounder, but the problem is when they do, it will be way too late to stop what, at the moment can be halted if we all hold our nerve and work together.
The sight of soliders on the streets of Belfast again in any number is not something that the Republican community will not tolerate, and you may like that or not like it, it is a fact, so how will you cure this situation without making it all a whole lot worse, since you don't think the Republican movement should keep it's own house in order?
To expect people who have lived as a community under the tyranny, and I really do not use that word lightly, of a protestant majority for a long time, to embrace the idea of Westminster solving their problems is to say the least mind numbingly naieve, but then that is often the response that one gets from people who have read a lot, and not lived the lives that they read about.
I am seeking only to point out, not whose right or wrong, because at this point that's not even really relevant, but what we ALL must do to stop a slide back to right where we started from, or possibly worse.
If you think that Westminster can cure this, then go right ahead and watch their best efforts flounder, but the problem is when they do, it will be way too late to stop what, at the moment can be halted if we all hold our nerve and work together.
The sight of soliders on the streets of Belfast again in any number is not something that the Republican community will not tolerate, and you may like that or not like it, it is a fact, so how will you cure this situation without making it all a whole lot worse, since you don't think the Republican movement should keep it's own house in order?
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