News7 mins ago
Police brutality?
40 Answers
Video footage has now been released of the man who died during the G20 demonstration.
The police said there'd been a confrontation with him, they will state (almost certainly) that they told him to move and that he did'nt he did'nt comply (or at least quickly enough) to my mind he posed no threat to the police as his hands were in his pockets and he was walking away quietly and calmly.
The defence will say there is no correlation with his heart attack and the incident, but, my ancient first aid training taught me that falls can kill as can shock.
What do you think the charge should be, if any?
The police said there'd been a confrontation with him, they will state (almost certainly) that they told him to move and that he did'nt he did'nt comply (or at least quickly enough) to my mind he posed no threat to the police as his hands were in his pockets and he was walking away quietly and calmly.
The defence will say there is no correlation with his heart attack and the incident, but, my ancient first aid training taught me that falls can kill as can shock.
What do you think the charge should be, if any?
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123:
Firstly, it's extremely sad that a human being has lost his life regardless of the circumstances.
Is it however a smidgen premature to try to guess what the Police might or might not say?
Also, trying to second guess "The defence" also requires the aid of a crystal ball at this stage. No one has yet even been investigated, let alone charged with any offence.
Personally I haven't yet seen the video footage of the incident. The video content would I imagine form a significant part of the evidence in any subsequent investigation. But whether or not there is any other evidence also remains to be seen before any possible offences could be identified.
Not only is this a great embarrassment for the Met, but far more importantly it's a tragedy because a human life has been lost.
Firstly, it's extremely sad that a human being has lost his life regardless of the circumstances.
Is it however a smidgen premature to try to guess what the Police might or might not say?
Also, trying to second guess "The defence" also requires the aid of a crystal ball at this stage. No one has yet even been investigated, let alone charged with any offence.
Personally I haven't yet seen the video footage of the incident. The video content would I imagine form a significant part of the evidence in any subsequent investigation. But whether or not there is any other evidence also remains to be seen before any possible offences could be identified.
Not only is this a great embarrassment for the Met, but far more importantly it's a tragedy because a human life has been lost.
Hi again 123:
I've now seen the incident which was apparently filmed on someone's mobile phone.
It would appear that this guy was deliberately struck from behind by one of the riot police causing him to fall to the ground.
It may well be that he struck his head when he fell but that's not actually shown.
It looks very bad for the Police Officer involved.
I've now seen the incident which was apparently filmed on someone's mobile phone.
It would appear that this guy was deliberately struck from behind by one of the riot police causing him to fall to the ground.
It may well be that he struck his head when he fell but that's not actually shown.
It looks very bad for the Police Officer involved.
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Here's the link for the page with the video footage. That poor poor man.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/ uk/ 2009/ apr/ 07/ video-g20...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/ uk/ 2009/ apr/ 07/ video-g20...
At the beginning of the video you will see a man hit by a placard....the man falls - police remove him for safety.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/G20-D eath-Son-Of-Ian-Tomlinson-Demands-Answers-Afte r-Seeing-Video-Of-Police-Push-Father-To-Ground /Article/200904215257871?lpos=UK_News_Carousel _Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15257871_G20_Death%3A_So n_Of_Ian_Tomlinson_Demands_Answers_After_Seein g_Video_Of_Police_Push_Father_To_Ground
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/G20-D eath-Son-Of-Ian-Tomlinson-Demands-Answers-Afte r-Seeing-Video-Of-Police-Push-Father-To-Ground /Article/200904215257871?lpos=UK_News_Carousel _Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15257871_G20_Death%3A_So n_Of_Ian_Tomlinson_Demands_Answers_After_Seein g_Video_Of_Police_Push_Father_To_Ground
On News at Ten last night, it was reported that the chap wasn't even a protester - he was just a newspaper seller walking home.
The video shows him with his back to the police with his hands in his pockets walking away from them.
Even worse - when he's struck to the ground, he quietly remonstrates with the police...no shouting or gesticulating.
And then a few minutes later he dies.
Those appear to be the facts as we see them at the moment.
I look forward to the police explanation, especially in light of the lies they told after killing Jean Charles de Menezes.
Perhaps they'll say looked Muslim?
The video shows him with his back to the police with his hands in his pockets walking away from them.
Even worse - when he's struck to the ground, he quietly remonstrates with the police...no shouting or gesticulating.
And then a few minutes later he dies.
Those appear to be the facts as we see them at the moment.
I look forward to the police explanation, especially in light of the lies they told after killing Jean Charles de Menezes.
Perhaps they'll say looked Muslim?
Here's the link
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2009/apr/07 /g20-police-assault-video
There is no decent sound
it looks as if he is ambling along infront of the police, they tap him on the shoulder and he doesn't move along.
It looks as if he's ignoring them and being obstructive.
One of them give him a shove and he falls because he has his hands in his pockets
It doesn't look all that unreasonable - he's getting in their way.
On the replay you can see them hit him on the legs with a baton - first it doesn't look that hard - he doesn't take his hands out of his pockets!
On the ground he's remonstrating with the police - he doesn't look hurt.
It's only the fact that we know that he died later that causes us to react this way.
If he had just gone home and someone had posted this as "police brutality" I think there'd be an outcry of "hand wringing liberals"
I don't think this is particularly excessive
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2009/apr/07 /g20-police-assault-video
There is no decent sound
it looks as if he is ambling along infront of the police, they tap him on the shoulder and he doesn't move along.
It looks as if he's ignoring them and being obstructive.
One of them give him a shove and he falls because he has his hands in his pockets
It doesn't look all that unreasonable - he's getting in their way.
On the replay you can see them hit him on the legs with a baton - first it doesn't look that hard - he doesn't take his hands out of his pockets!
On the ground he's remonstrating with the police - he doesn't look hurt.
It's only the fact that we know that he died later that causes us to react this way.
If he had just gone home and someone had posted this as "police brutality" I think there'd be an outcry of "hand wringing liberals"
I don't think this is particularly excessive
I agree with Jake. If it was him I would have got out the way fast under the circumstances. The word "brutality" should not be used in this instance because there was absolutely nothing brutal about this incident! You see much worse in the premiership every week. What about the the protestor that smakced the policeman over the head with a large pole.
I dont see anyone up in arms about that, oh thats right, he's a policeman, he's fair game at a protest like this and he didnt have a heart attack 5 mins later.
I dont see anyone up in arms about that, oh thats right, he's a policeman, he's fair game at a protest like this and he didnt have a heart attack 5 mins later.
If he was an innocent bystander then the policeman is no better than a thug and should be prosecuted. If he was a protester it appears he was not violent and should have been moved aside - he was certainly outnumbered. If he was acting violent he deserved what he got.
I was not there and cannot comment beyond this.
I was not there and cannot comment beyond this.
If I was not a demonstrator and the Police pushed me from behind causing me to fall, I would consider it excessive and unreasonable.
He does not appear hurt and walks away, but it would obviously have caused him distress which could have brought on his heart attack.
Was he being obstructive? Did he deserve to be pushed out of the way? Was he on his normal way home and resented being ordered what to do by the Police?
At best, the police were heavy handed.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-116831 5/Caught-camera-The-moment-G20-victim-hit-bato n-shoved-ground-police.html
He does not appear hurt and walks away, but it would obviously have caused him distress which could have brought on his heart attack.
Was he being obstructive? Did he deserve to be pushed out of the way? Was he on his normal way home and resented being ordered what to do by the Police?
At best, the police were heavy handed.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-116831 5/Caught-camera-The-moment-G20-victim-hit-bato n-shoved-ground-police.html
excessive force - followed by a police lie / attempted cover up - followed by video footage of the incident making it to the press, followed by a damning verdict on the police... it all seems quite familiar
oh and the difference between a protester attacking the police and the police attack random members of the public seems quite obvious to me - we expect, deserve and demand that our police force operate within the law, if they are unable to do this then they have little ability to perform the job they are employed to do
oh and the difference between a protester attacking the police and the police attack random members of the public seems quite obvious to me - we expect, deserve and demand that our police force operate within the law, if they are unable to do this then they have little ability to perform the job they are employed to do
It is interesting to compare what was written in the newspapers at the time of Mr Tomlinson's death, and see how it compares with this video footage.
The Telegraph wrote:
An unnamed newspaper vendor at Monument station, who said he had known Mr Tomlinson for 25 years, said: "He was a gentleman and he never hurt anyone. I think what happened was he was on his way home when the police must have diverted him to go on a different route back.
"He must have fallen over and someone must have scared him and then he got trampled on by the mob. He was not in very good physical condition.
"It was not the police's fault. He was just caught in the wrong place at the wrong time."
The AFP News Agency, which many newspapers based their reports of his death wrote:
It was not clear how he died, but several people were earlier injured when protesters held in a police cordon surged against the barriers, following violent clashes and an attack on a bank that led to 63 arrests.
The Telegraph wrote:
An unnamed newspaper vendor at Monument station, who said he had known Mr Tomlinson for 25 years, said: "He was a gentleman and he never hurt anyone. I think what happened was he was on his way home when the police must have diverted him to go on a different route back.
"He must have fallen over and someone must have scared him and then he got trampled on by the mob. He was not in very good physical condition.
"It was not the police's fault. He was just caught in the wrong place at the wrong time."
The AFP News Agency, which many newspapers based their reports of his death wrote:
It was not clear how he died, but several people were earlier injured when protesters held in a police cordon surged against the barriers, following violent clashes and an attack on a bank that led to 63 arrests.
"He does not appear hurt and walks away, but it would obviously have caused him distress which could have brought on his heart attack"
Yes Gromit it "could" have brought on his heart attack. He also "could" have been having heart problems before this incident as often happens in heart attacks. So unless you are a cardiologist and have ssen his ECG it is total speculation.
Yes Gromit it "could" have brought on his heart attack. He also "could" have been having heart problems before this incident as often happens in heart attacks. So unless you are a cardiologist and have ssen his ECG it is total speculation.
The root cause of all this is the ridiculous �demonstrations� held in the City that day.
As far as I can recall no �demonstration� in this country in recent years has ever achieved anything other than a waste of everybody�s time, considerable disruption, numerous injuries and sometimes tragically deaths. Policies are not changed because of them and are unlikely ever to be.
It is about time people involved in these mindless pursuits grew up and found themselves something else to do.
As far as I can recall no �demonstration� in this country in recent years has ever achieved anything other than a waste of everybody�s time, considerable disruption, numerous injuries and sometimes tragically deaths. Policies are not changed because of them and are unlikely ever to be.
It is about time people involved in these mindless pursuits grew up and found themselves something else to do.
I have no axe to grind with the police, I deal with them often in work and my experiences vary accordingly.
Anyone who attacks a police officer on duty, anyone who attacks anybody should be dealt with severely.
My statement is based on experience, the police were moving forward and trying to move the crowd along, whilst doing this they will have been issuing instructions (loudly) he was moving slowly compared to the others, his were in his pockets he did'nt remove his hands from his pockets because his back was turned to the police and he did'nt expect to get struck by them (I dare say he was more concerned about being assaulted by a demonstrator),
My statements on the poice are based on how I believe they will attempt to explain the discrepancy with what they said and what we now see.
A man in the early stages of a heart attack is highly unlikely to stroll down a road with his hands in his pockets, and if the police felt he was obstructing them given his calm demeanour it would have been easier to snatch him and take him to the rear.
Anyone who attacks a police officer on duty, anyone who attacks anybody should be dealt with severely.
My statement is based on experience, the police were moving forward and trying to move the crowd along, whilst doing this they will have been issuing instructions (loudly) he was moving slowly compared to the others, his were in his pockets he did'nt remove his hands from his pockets because his back was turned to the police and he did'nt expect to get struck by them (I dare say he was more concerned about being assaulted by a demonstrator),
My statements on the poice are based on how I believe they will attempt to explain the discrepancy with what they said and what we now see.
A man in the early stages of a heart attack is highly unlikely to stroll down a road with his hands in his pockets, and if the police felt he was obstructing them given his calm demeanour it would have been easier to snatch him and take him to the rear.
I agree with Jake entirely.
It appears he was told to move on as they were clearing the street. Protester or not, he's ambling away taking no notice and gets a shove.
It is sad that he died but should not be allowed to cloud the fact that he had been given a shove by the officer for not moving away as directed.
It appears he was told to move on as they were clearing the street. Protester or not, he's ambling away taking no notice and gets a shove.
It is sad that he died but should not be allowed to cloud the fact that he had been given a shove by the officer for not moving away as directed.
So why did'nt they just arrest him?
He's separated at a modest distance from the others, they're trained to snatch protestors in far more explosive situations, so why did'nt they just take him as per the training manual?
He was walking away just not quick enough for the officer's taste.
I think the police in this instance have demonstrated poor judgement and poor discipline.
Also, I'm loathe to demonstrate over anything (cos I work for a living) but I feel it is a right to demonstrate if one feels the need.
If I struck someone on the legs and knocked them to the floor, someone who was walking away from me and not looking at me posing no threat, then my actions would be interpreted by the police as assault, although I accept that the police work in difficult circumstances (and a bit of slack needs to be cut for them) having watched the clip they're actions seem to me to be excessive.
He's separated at a modest distance from the others, they're trained to snatch protestors in far more explosive situations, so why did'nt they just take him as per the training manual?
He was walking away just not quick enough for the officer's taste.
I think the police in this instance have demonstrated poor judgement and poor discipline.
Also, I'm loathe to demonstrate over anything (cos I work for a living) but I feel it is a right to demonstrate if one feels the need.
If I struck someone on the legs and knocked them to the floor, someone who was walking away from me and not looking at me posing no threat, then my actions would be interpreted by the police as assault, although I accept that the police work in difficult circumstances (and a bit of slack needs to be cut for them) having watched the clip they're actions seem to me to be excessive.
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