who are the real victims?

[chirpychirpy]

I don't work for the police in any shape or form, and yes I accept that on occasion some of them over-react in certain situations. But I also think the pressure on them is immense and, despite them existing to protect us, they seem to get far more stick than support. Plenty of people can't wait to find fault with them. In situations such as the G20 protests, the police are often targeted despite not actually being the cause of the protests. From footage I've watched of the two cases which have arisen from those protests concerning police brutality, I don't see entirely innocent victims - certainly not heroes or martyrs like they're almost being portrayed as. It seems these days there's a culture for crying foul at authority and not taking a moment to gather all the evidence and make a balanced judgment. What do you think?

[delboy3]

Spot on. I'm certainly no fan of the police but when I see the crap they have to put up with, I take their side.

In my opinion that Ian Tomlinson bloke was deliberately shuffling in front of the police, goading them almost, so I don't think he wasn't quite the innocent passer-by most people make him out to be.

Pity there was no water-cannon at the G20. These protesters love to push the police to the limit then instantly cry foul when they get the reaction they deserve.

[craft1948]

I don't remember people on the Countryside Alliance march getting any sympathy regarding over enthusiastic policing.....

[paraffin]

chirpy:

I could have penned this post myself! This is undoubtedly one of the most fair-minded I've seen on this subject recently. Far too many people have leapt to condemn the Police on the flimsiest of evidence or the shakiest clip of film footage taken totally out of context.

I hasten to add that the Ian Tomlinson incident looks very bleak for the Officer concerned whose actions appeared to be excessive. It remains to be seen, however, if those actions contributed directly to Mr Tomlinson's death. Only the ongoing IPCC enquiry can ultimately decide.

Some contributors to similar posts on the subject would have long since organised their own lynch mob and had the Officer strung up from the nearest lampost by now, though.

The media do nothing to try to be evenhanded about these situations, either, given the fact that the Police have no right of reply.

They've already had the woman who was filmed being hit by the Officer paraded in front of the cameras today playing the wronged victim. If this isn't a media stunt I don't know what is - she already has Max Clifford orchestrating her media appearances - that in itself speaks volumes. Billy Smart would have given his right arm to have a circus like that!

The Police are far from perfect and there have always been a few rotten apples in the proverbial barrel but theirs is a thankless task which none of their detractors would ever dream of undertaking. It's so conveniently forgotten that Police are not "supermen/women" they are like all of us, mere humans with human strengths and failings.

In this country people are permitted to peacefully demonstrate/protest but the G20 protests in London the other week were far from that. And under those circumstances nothing less than positive policing is appropriate.

[anotheoldgit]

Yes I totally agree with both chirpy and paraffin, and I don't think I could add anything else.

Except of course, while the Media and some on AB are only too keen on coming down hard on our Police, not much attention was given to the poor dead policeman Gary Toms who was taken off his life support machine yesterday.

In fact I did a search and it was difficult to get a report on this.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Polic e-Officer-Gary-Toms-Dies-In-Hospital-After-Cha sing-Suspected-Robbers-In-East-London/Article/ 200904315264009?lpos=UK_News_Top_Stories_Heade r_1&lid=ARTICLE_15264009_Police_Officer_Gary_T oms_Dies_In_Hospital_After_Chasing_Suspected_R obbers_In_East_London

[paraffin]

aog:

Spot on! The steamroller aka the media frenzy about a money grabbing female with her own agenda is unstoppable, and her "story" is obviously far more newsworthy than the death of a Police Officer trying to prevent an aggravated burglary.

It speaks volumes and sums up the priorities which news editors give credence to.

[brionon]

With you,mate.

[chirpychirpy]

Protests such as these and the May Day demonstrations attract an 'element' for whom the real cause is irrelevant. They just want trouble regardless, and they regard the police as their enemy. Rent-a-mob basically. They also regard those who goad the police sufficiently to get a strong-handed reaction from them as their heroes. It appears that Miss Money-grabbing Max Clifford client and, to a degree by proxy, Tomlinson's ever-present stepson revel in this status. Yet what have these 'victims' really done to deserve the attention? What kind of achievement is to wind the police up in an already hideously difficult situation for them? And, if they succeed in having the officers concerned sacked, charged or whatever, just how powerless is that going to make our police in future? They're already restricted to an absurd extent, and weighed down by ridiculous amounts of paperwork.

[Eve]

At last some likeminded people.

I couldn't defend uneccesary brutality but the police face such a hard job.

I remember when Rangers fans descended on Manchester and have to say I felt a hell of a lot safer with all the police around.

The situation was dangerous and they were trying to protect people and the city itself and I'm glad for it else who knows how much worse it could have been.

What did they get for doing their (bloody dangerous and risky) job? Targeted and that poor officer who got the crap kicked out of him and for what?

[paraffin]

Jenna:

Two days after the Manchester riots I saw a programme on Setanta called Real Radio Phone In - it's broadcast on radio as well and the studio is located just outside Glasgow and is primarily concerned with Scottish football.

Its main presenter, Ewen Cameron, actually blamed the Police for what had happened! I sat there, mouth open, as he tried to justify his comments - he basically exonerated the Rangers fan - he himself supports Hearts - on the basis that when one of the giant screens erected in the city to show the game to those without tickets, had broken down, the Police had allegedly then prevented Rangers fans from finding other viewing opportunities which antagonised them to the point where they then went on the rampage(the Rangers fans, not the Police).

There were then a number of callers, Rangers fans, who had been in Manchester, also claiming, with Cameron's full sympathy and backing, that the "heavy handed" policing had been the cause of the disturbances and that the "fans" were merely protecting themselves from this "unprovoked police brutality). You could have fooled me!!

Methinks Mr Cameron didn't want to alienate any of the callers to the show? Mmmmmmmhhhhhhhhhhhh

[paraffin]

I've just heard a "well informed" Lib Dem MP criticising the Police for wearing "balaclavas" whilst on duty at the G20 protests. He said he "couldn't understand it".

Let me enlighten his ignorance:

Part of Police issue uniform for so-called riot gear are these balaclavas which are designed to be worn under the riot helmet. They are flame resistant and are worn in case things like petrol bombs are thrown at Officers. In other words they are a piece of protective kit.

It should also be noted that it is open faced, unlike those worn by a number of the "peaceful demonstrators" present.

[Kromovaracun]

The reason people pounce on police foul-play is that it's vital to scrutinise the police.

The police do exist to protect us, and I don't think anyone's saying they're completely corrupt/thuggish, but we do trust them with a hell of a lot. And the unavoidable fact is there are plenty of people in the force that are quite happy to abuse or ignore that trust.

If that's the case, then it's important for the public to blow the whistle on the police's shortcomings as much as we can. Whether they like it or not, the police are a service for the public's safety and as such they rely on the public's trust. They can't forget it.

[123everton]

Ian Tomlinson died, his step son has a right to be concerned and ask questions.
The Manchester riot was a different operation and dealt with professionally that's why no serious questions were asked.
One was a model of police professionalism and efficiency the other (it appears) was'nt.

[Quinlad]

Well said, Kromo.

I don't think anyone's ignoring the fact that the police were goaded. They were in a stressful situation and were faced with very unpleasant behaviour.

But they're trained (and paid) to stay professional. Losing your rag and hitting someone because people are saying nasty words at you or shuffling instead of walking quickly is not good enough.

You learn not to react like that in primary school. So for grown adults to react like that (in any job) is unacceptable. To do it when you're tasked with maintaining public order and safety is woeful.

Try not to see everything so black and white. It is possible to recognise both aggressive behaviour from the protestors AND a lack of professionalism from the police. It doesn't have to be either/or. And the former doesn't excuse the latter.