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where are all the islamophiles?
At least Vic's had ago at the Muslim question below, a bit quiet perhaps, but where are te rest of the "Islam is good" brigade, you know the ones who are quite happy with the religion of peace, the silence is deafening!
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Oneeyedvic � I did actually say that �some� Islamic societies do that. I did not say they all did.
I agree that some Islamic societies are not as hard line as others. But the fact remains that Islam�s aim is to convert the entire world into an Islamic world.
And that will be a very unpleasant world to live in if you are a woman, gay or someone who chooses to believe in anything other than Islam.
I agree that some Islamic societies are not as hard line as others. But the fact remains that Islam�s aim is to convert the entire world into an Islamic world.
And that will be a very unpleasant world to live in if you are a woman, gay or someone who chooses to believe in anything other than Islam.
But the fact remains that Islam�s aim is to convert the entire world into an Islamic world.
We go back to the old question - how many people in Islamic countries have been converted? Or killed for not believing.
You can print words that you think come from the Koran, but please, why not back these words up by showing us how all these people have been killed.
Answer - you can't.
Now lets think why it is you can't.
Is it possible that the majority of Muslims are actually law abiding citizens who (like most Christians) go to the mosque (Church), give the appearance of listening and then go back home and carry on their day as usual?
Instead of relying on reports that appear to castigate ALL Muslims, why not actually look at the real world and realise that I have met Muslim people, they know that I am not a Muslim and I am still alive.
We go back to the old question - how many people in Islamic countries have been converted? Or killed for not believing.
You can print words that you think come from the Koran, but please, why not back these words up by showing us how all these people have been killed.
Answer - you can't.
Now lets think why it is you can't.
Is it possible that the majority of Muslims are actually law abiding citizens who (like most Christians) go to the mosque (Church), give the appearance of listening and then go back home and carry on their day as usual?
Instead of relying on reports that appear to castigate ALL Muslims, why not actually look at the real world and realise that I have met Muslim people, they know that I am not a Muslim and I am still alive.
Oneeyedvic - How many times have I said this � I do not believe that all Muslims are bad people. I believe that the vast majority are decent people.
The problem is with Islam. Please try to understand.
The ideology of Islam is rotten to the core. It does call for the killing of apostates and homosexuals. Whether individual Muslims carry out these punishments is another matter. But the fact remains that Islam is cruel and intolerant.
Let's look at it another way.
Most people strongly suspect that the BNP is simply the political wing of far right British Nazis. Does that make every single member of the BNP a warped would-be racist killer? No.
If some members of the BNP are decent, law abiding people then according to you, no one should have anything to fear from the BNP. After all, not everyone in the BNP subscribes to every aspect of its ideology.
Ergo, by your reasoning, the BNP is not a problem and it's spread is not necessarily a bad thing.
�how many people in Islamic countries have been converted? Or killed for not believing.?� Absolutely no idea. Neither has anyone else. But the fact is that some people have been persecuted and killed for not believing or deconverting.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/artic le510589.ece
�... I have met Muslim people, they know that I am not a Muslim and I am still alive.�. Ditto. And that's because you live in the UK where you are allowed to hold your own opinions, even if they conflict with the majority.
Try going to Iran (or Iraq, Sudan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc.) to convert people away from Islam � you'll soon find out how tolerant 'the religion of peace' really is.
The problem is with Islam. Please try to understand.
The ideology of Islam is rotten to the core. It does call for the killing of apostates and homosexuals. Whether individual Muslims carry out these punishments is another matter. But the fact remains that Islam is cruel and intolerant.
Let's look at it another way.
Most people strongly suspect that the BNP is simply the political wing of far right British Nazis. Does that make every single member of the BNP a warped would-be racist killer? No.
If some members of the BNP are decent, law abiding people then according to you, no one should have anything to fear from the BNP. After all, not everyone in the BNP subscribes to every aspect of its ideology.
Ergo, by your reasoning, the BNP is not a problem and it's spread is not necessarily a bad thing.
�how many people in Islamic countries have been converted? Or killed for not believing.?� Absolutely no idea. Neither has anyone else. But the fact is that some people have been persecuted and killed for not believing or deconverting.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/artic le510589.ece
�... I have met Muslim people, they know that I am not a Muslim and I am still alive.�. Ditto. And that's because you live in the UK where you are allowed to hold your own opinions, even if they conflict with the majority.
Try going to Iran (or Iraq, Sudan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc.) to convert people away from Islam � you'll soon find out how tolerant 'the religion of peace' really is.
Your BNP analogy is fine. As you say, I personally don't like the BNP (and since my parents came here from Sri Lanka I have good reason to not like them).
That said, I don't have an issue with them. They are spreading further and wider and getting more support.
Do I think that they will ever become a main stream party - I really don't think so. In fact, if they did ever come to power, being honest I wouldn't want to live here - not just because of their policies - but because my views would be vastly different to the majority of the electorate.
Do I describe them as a cancerous or do I say that they shouldn't be allowed. No. In fact I will defend their rights as much as possible.
I have also stated that one of my good friends is a BNP supporter. I like him despite some of his views.
I am curious - If one of your good friends became a Muslim convert, would you drop him / her?
That said, I don't have an issue with them. They are spreading further and wider and getting more support.
Do I think that they will ever become a main stream party - I really don't think so. In fact, if they did ever come to power, being honest I wouldn't want to live here - not just because of their policies - but because my views would be vastly different to the majority of the electorate.
Do I describe them as a cancerous or do I say that they shouldn't be allowed. No. In fact I will defend their rights as much as possible.
I have also stated that one of my good friends is a BNP supporter. I like him despite some of his views.
I am curious - If one of your good friends became a Muslim convert, would you drop him / her?
birdie1971
Fri 22/05/09
19:42
���Try going to Iran (or Iraq, Sudan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc.) to convert people away from Islam � you'll soon find out how tolerant 'the religion of peace' really is.
If you answer my previous question which Vic is waiting for the answer too then you may clarify this allegation as well. Because let me tell you one thing that all those countries excluding Saudi Arabia allow you to preach whatever you like. Saudi Arabia do not allow in public as they say that any religion�s scholars or experts should first talk to Muslim scholars and prove that they are sure about their own teachings before trying to teach it to someone else.
This person was chief Justice of Pakistan and he still is alive and still is a Hindu.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rana_Bhagwandas
Finally why I ask only you for a face to face debate? Well you have shown that reason here too. Just about one hour I did not reply to your question as all of us have others thing in life too, and as usual this is what you are posting�.
birdie1971
Fri 22/05/09
19:51 Come on Keyplus � I'm still waiting for the link to your magnificent offer
No one else becomes so desperate here so face to face may give you a chance to get rid of all your anxieties. But I will excuse you for that.
Vic- I can bet if you carry on with my little birdie like this then you will keep going round a round in circle and he will confuse you with his looooooooooooong posts that would not make any sense or point.
Fri 22/05/09
19:42
���Try going to Iran (or Iraq, Sudan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc.) to convert people away from Islam � you'll soon find out how tolerant 'the religion of peace' really is.
If you answer my previous question which Vic is waiting for the answer too then you may clarify this allegation as well. Because let me tell you one thing that all those countries excluding Saudi Arabia allow you to preach whatever you like. Saudi Arabia do not allow in public as they say that any religion�s scholars or experts should first talk to Muslim scholars and prove that they are sure about their own teachings before trying to teach it to someone else.
This person was chief Justice of Pakistan and he still is alive and still is a Hindu.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rana_Bhagwandas
Finally why I ask only you for a face to face debate? Well you have shown that reason here too. Just about one hour I did not reply to your question as all of us have others thing in life too, and as usual this is what you are posting�.
birdie1971
Fri 22/05/09
19:51 Come on Keyplus � I'm still waiting for the link to your magnificent offer
No one else becomes so desperate here so face to face may give you a chance to get rid of all your anxieties. But I will excuse you for that.
Vic- I can bet if you carry on with my little birdie like this then you will keep going round a round in circle and he will confuse you with his looooooooooooong posts that would not make any sense or point.
Keyplus � �I do not have time to go back and check all the links.�
YOU NEVER MADE THE OFFER, YOU PRAT.
�And please do not forget to answer my two answers and one of those answers will satisfy Vic as well.�
I won't forget Keyplus. But of course if I do respond, you'll probably just criticise me for posting a long post won't you?
You go on to say, �Vic- I can bet if you carry on with my little birdie like this then you will keep going round a round in circle and he will confuse you with his looooooooooooong posts that would not make any sense or point.�
Apart from the obvious fact that your last post was a long one, it appears that it is only you who seems to see no sense in my answers.
Funny that isn't?
Seeing as Vic has just said, �Your BNP analogy is fine...�
You see, Keyplus, Vic has a brain and can follow a logical argument. You on the other hand seem to have a very real problem with logic and rationality.
YOU NEVER MADE THE OFFER, YOU PRAT.
�And please do not forget to answer my two answers and one of those answers will satisfy Vic as well.�
I won't forget Keyplus. But of course if I do respond, you'll probably just criticise me for posting a long post won't you?
You go on to say, �Vic- I can bet if you carry on with my little birdie like this then you will keep going round a round in circle and he will confuse you with his looooooooooooong posts that would not make any sense or point.�
Apart from the obvious fact that your last post was a long one, it appears that it is only you who seems to see no sense in my answers.
Funny that isn't?
Seeing as Vic has just said, �Your BNP analogy is fine...�
You see, Keyplus, Vic has a brain and can follow a logical argument. You on the other hand seem to have a very real problem with logic and rationality.
Vic - �I am curious - If one of your good friends became a Muslim convert, would you drop him / her?�
No. Because as I keep saying (and which no one seems to hear) is that I do not think that all Muslims are bad. How many times do I have to keep repeating this?
It's Islam that is cruel, evil and intolerant � this does not mean that every single person within it shares every one of its ideologies.
No. Because as I keep saying (and which no one seems to hear) is that I do not think that all Muslims are bad. How many times do I have to keep repeating this?
It's Islam that is cruel, evil and intolerant � this does not mean that every single person within it shares every one of its ideologies.
Keyplus - �Could you please give me a reference about, Mohammed clearly states that it's fine to deceive people who do not follow Islam.�
Here's one...
"Allah's Apostle said, 'Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?' Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslamah got up saying, 'O Allah's Apostle! Would you like me to kill him?' The Prophet said, 'Yes,' Maslamah said, 'Then allow me to say false things in order to deceive him.' The Prophet said, 'You may say such things.'"
QED � Mohammed encourages deception.
Here's one...
"Allah's Apostle said, 'Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?' Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslamah got up saying, 'O Allah's Apostle! Would you like me to kill him?' The Prophet said, 'Yes,' Maslamah said, 'Then allow me to say false things in order to deceive him.' The Prophet said, 'You may say such things.'"
QED � Mohammed encourages deception.
Vic -
To answer your question about Benazir Bhutto.
She was born in Karachi, Pakistan, on June 21, 1953.
Although she was born to a Muslim family, she attended Catholic schools. She was also tutored at home in non-religious subjects, the Muslim faith, and Arabic.
She became prime minister of Pakistan in 1988.
She wanted to make changes to encourage human rights in Pakistan but she was unable to change laws that degraded women because she feared losing the support of religious groups, many of whom believed it was "un-Islamic" for a woman to be the head of government in the first place.
With regards to who 'owned' her, I concede that no one owned her as such. As usual, different rules apply to the ruling classes.
The fact is though that many millions of women in Islamic states have very few human rights and in many places they are unable to leave the house without a male companion. Islamic supporters explain this by claiming it's for the safety of the woman � which is effectively saying that Muslim men are all rapists who would be unable to stop themselves from violating women if they saw one on her own.
I do not believe that this is true. Muslim men can control themselves around un-chaperoned women as well as anyone else. What this is really about is control. Control of women.
If you want to control a section of society, first frighten them and second, demoralise them.
To answer your question about Benazir Bhutto.
She was born in Karachi, Pakistan, on June 21, 1953.
Although she was born to a Muslim family, she attended Catholic schools. She was also tutored at home in non-religious subjects, the Muslim faith, and Arabic.
She became prime minister of Pakistan in 1988.
She wanted to make changes to encourage human rights in Pakistan but she was unable to change laws that degraded women because she feared losing the support of religious groups, many of whom believed it was "un-Islamic" for a woman to be the head of government in the first place.
With regards to who 'owned' her, I concede that no one owned her as such. As usual, different rules apply to the ruling classes.
The fact is though that many millions of women in Islamic states have very few human rights and in many places they are unable to leave the house without a male companion. Islamic supporters explain this by claiming it's for the safety of the woman � which is effectively saying that Muslim men are all rapists who would be unable to stop themselves from violating women if they saw one on her own.
I do not believe that this is true. Muslim men can control themselves around un-chaperoned women as well as anyone else. What this is really about is control. Control of women.
If you want to control a section of society, first frighten them and second, demoralise them.
Come on birdie. do not try confusing others using your same tactics.
Offer, if it was not made then it is there now. So what do you think?
And yes still answers to those two questions please. Be precise as people do not have time to waste.
Is this what you said�.
birdie1971
Fri 22/05/09
23:12 Keyplus - �Could you please give me a reference about, little birdie clearly states that it's fine to deceive people who do not follow Islam.�
Here's one...
"Birdie said, 'Who is willing to kill keyplus who has hurt little birdie and his faith in no god?' Thereupon another birdie got up saying, 'O my little birdie! Would you like me to kill him?' The Little Birdie said, 'Yes,' Other birdie said, 'Then allow me to say false things in order to deceive him.' The little birdie said, 'You may say such things.'"
QED � my little birdie encourages deception.
There you go It is so easy to create your own Hadith and that is the reason I said I need ref for Hadith from Muhammad (pbuh) and not birdie (pbuh). So be sensible and give me a reference that where is this Hadith and you are clever enough to understand what I am after. Only then I would look into it otherwise I have learnt how to ignore you.
Don�t forget answers to the question.
Of course Vic has brain and that is the reason he has decided to ignore you.
Offer, if it was not made then it is there now. So what do you think?
And yes still answers to those two questions please. Be precise as people do not have time to waste.
Is this what you said�.
birdie1971
Fri 22/05/09
23:12 Keyplus - �Could you please give me a reference about, little birdie clearly states that it's fine to deceive people who do not follow Islam.�
Here's one...
"Birdie said, 'Who is willing to kill keyplus who has hurt little birdie and his faith in no god?' Thereupon another birdie got up saying, 'O my little birdie! Would you like me to kill him?' The Little Birdie said, 'Yes,' Other birdie said, 'Then allow me to say false things in order to deceive him.' The little birdie said, 'You may say such things.'"
QED � my little birdie encourages deception.
There you go It is so easy to create your own Hadith and that is the reason I said I need ref for Hadith from Muhammad (pbuh) and not birdie (pbuh). So be sensible and give me a reference that where is this Hadith and you are clever enough to understand what I am after. Only then I would look into it otherwise I have learnt how to ignore you.
Don�t forget answers to the question.
Of course Vic has brain and that is the reason he has decided to ignore you.
Keyplus � You never cease to amaze me. Your dishonesty knows no bounds.
�So be sensible and give me a reference that where is this Hadith?�
You know very well that this quote...
�"Allah's Apostle said, 'Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?' Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslamah got up saying, 'O Allah's Apostle! Would you like me to kill him?' The Prophet said, 'Yes,' Maslamah said, 'Then allow me to say false things in order to deceive him.' The Prophet said, 'You may say such things.'�
This is a real quote. The reference is.. Bukhari:V5B59N369
Bukhari, as you well know, is the author of one of the six major Sunni Hadith collections which most Sunni Muslims view this as their most trusted collection of hadith and it has been called "The most authentic book after the Koran�
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahih_al-Bukhari# cite_note-0
Are you saying that I made the above quote up?
If so, I put it to you that you have no understanding of your own religion.
Alternatively, you are telling lies. Again.
Keyplus, you are pathetic. You are a liar and you are exactly the type of person that I absolutely abhor � your are utterly dishonest. You lie through your teeth and when someone exposes you as a liar, you simply carry on lying.
Have you ever considered becoming a politician?
�So be sensible and give me a reference that where is this Hadith?�
You know very well that this quote...
�"Allah's Apostle said, 'Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?' Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslamah got up saying, 'O Allah's Apostle! Would you like me to kill him?' The Prophet said, 'Yes,' Maslamah said, 'Then allow me to say false things in order to deceive him.' The Prophet said, 'You may say such things.'�
This is a real quote. The reference is.. Bukhari:V5B59N369
Bukhari, as you well know, is the author of one of the six major Sunni Hadith collections which most Sunni Muslims view this as their most trusted collection of hadith and it has been called "The most authentic book after the Koran�
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahih_al-Bukhari# cite_note-0
Are you saying that I made the above quote up?
If so, I put it to you that you have no understanding of your own religion.
Alternatively, you are telling lies. Again.
Keyplus, you are pathetic. You are a liar and you are exactly the type of person that I absolutely abhor � your are utterly dishonest. You lie through your teeth and when someone exposes you as a liar, you simply carry on lying.
Have you ever considered becoming a politician?
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