pub rules

[k8bailey]

I went for dinner in a pub today, (lucky me!) with my mum and my 1year old daughter. Me and my daughter sat outside on the pavement in an area with a temporary barrier around it. After my mum had bought drinks we were told that children weren't allowed on the premises. I know that pubs can chose who to let in or not, but can they really dictate who sits outside on the pavement? My daughter wasn't even using one of their chairs, she was in her pushchair.

Another pub in my area has banned smoking in front of the pub, but agai as they don't own that bit of pavement can they legally do so?

[Mrs_Pegasus]

The pub will have had to get permission to have tables and chairs on the pavement so yes they do temporarily own that area. If an injury had occurred to you or your daughter who would you have sought compensation from? (an example rather than a question). By law I think establishments can ask that smoking doesnt occur within X metres at the front of property even thought they dont own it.

[paraffin]

Hi k8:
Sorry to hear about your miserable experience. It must have been very embarrassing for you.

Unless the law has changed recently, and I'm not aware that it has, there should be no bar whatsoever against your little daughter being where she was. It should only have been a problem had you been in the bar and I cannot in any way imagine that being the case sitting outside at a table.

You don't say who it was who told you? And what you did as a result? And what was this temporary barrier? Was the front of the pub exposed as a result?

If it was a waiter, you should have asked to speak to who was actually in charge. The organ grinder, not the monkey.

Re the smoking outside on the pavement, unless the pub owns the pavement (sounds highly unlikely) they have no right to prevent anyone from smoking there.

[Buenchico]

I used to work as weekend bar manager for a town centre pub/hotel. We had tables and chairs on the pavement outside, giving the place a 'continental' feel. However we had to take great care to stick to the rules, imposed by the council, which went along with the permission to put the tables and chairs on the public highway.

In our case we had to enforce a strict ban on children in that area, as well as only offering an 'at table' service. (i.e. we where meant to ensure that customers didn't buy drinks at the bar and then take them outside). This was in the days before the smoking ban but I've little doubt that a 'no smoking' rule would now be an additional restriction imposed by the council if that hotel wanted to provide pavement tables again.

Chris

[barry1010]

The pub could be right. Its licence has to specifically allow children on the premises.
"The Licensing Act 2003 swept away the vast majority of restrictions on allowing children in pubs. Each pub now has a unique set of conditions on the licence which sets out how the pub operates. Generally speaking, children are allowed to enter a pub unless it has a particular licence condition which says children are not to be permitted."

[loonytunes]

I dealt with about 650 applications made at the time of the transfer from the old licensing law to the new one. Licensees had to make a decision at that time to transfer their licences to the new regime and I can confirm that many were concerned that they could be forced to allow children into their premises in the light of the new "relaxed" views. As a result, applications were made confirming that no children would be allowed on the premises and, as these were volunteered, became conditions on the new licence. The same effect was also obtained by not applying for a change to the existing conditions as this made for a chaper application. The use of outside areas may be, as has been explained, the subject of an application to the Highways Department of the Council for a Pavement Cafe Licence which imposes separate conditions. In view of the predominence of such areas for smokers, many Councils will only grant them if children are not allowed in the area for obvious health reasons. It should also be borne in mind that a licensee can refuse to serve anyone they wish and you cannot make them accommodate you.

[k8bailey]

Thanks for all your responses.

I'm not sure who it was who asked us to leave, she could've been a manager but didn't introduce herself as such. I was so embarrassed, I just picked up our bags and left. The temporary barrier was basically just a rope barrier with metal stands which they take in at closing time - if the pushchair had been on the other side of the rope, we probably could've stayed.

I'm just surpried by it all, there was nothing to say that kids weren't welcome, and if we were indoors then I would've said fair enough, as I know that its up to the landlord who to admit or not, but since they don't own the pavement and my daughter wasn't using their furniture or having anthng to eat or drink, but was accompanied by 2 paying customers intending to have a meal, I think their descision was odd (given the current finacial climate) and wrong, but who am I to argue?!

[paraffin]

Hi again k8:

Don't put yourself down by saying "but who am I to argue?"
You were a paying customer who was treated shabbily, that's who.

I don't know how far you may try to take this but it seems as if you at least deserve an apology for the apparently offhand way you were treated.

It's all very well for anyone to come on here and glibly state how a landlord can refuse to serve anyone etc etc. However, any self respecting licensee who did so would at least explain why. Not only that, but dozens of licensed premises are going to the wall week in, week out, in this country and it's rather foolish of them to say the least to be turning legitimate trade away with such a lame excuse.

I'm only too aware that licensees have to comply with the relevant laws governing their places of business, but it's taking it to the nth degree of pettiness to banish people from sitting on the pavement.

Your local Citizens Advice Bureau may be able to assist if you need free legal advice. Good luck.

[tamborine]

lots to read.....nutshell answer; landlords of commercial premises are responsibe for their customers. Councils can impose instant �2k fine to landlords.

http://www.smokefreeengland.co.uk/what-do-i-do /business.html