FAO of seadragon

[Mr Veritas]

Hello there,
I have posted a rely to your 2nd Sept question,but as it's so far back now(and we don't seem to get email notifications of answers any more)and as you might not see it there, I thought I would repeat my answer here:~

I am sorry seadragon,but No I have not seen anything in the world since the Concentration Camps wich counteracts/balances out/ or unconvinces me of the worlds overwhelming badness.I sincerely believe that given the chance man will revert to his primitive instincts,which is to kill and conquer others.
I appreciate that there ARE small and brief incidents of overwhelming goodness,but as I say they cannot wipe out my opinion of mans inante inhumanity to his own species,and to others.

What was in the abyss I gazed on was the disgusting depravity that man can inflict on other humans.
What I saw in abyss was pure undiluted evil,not made by god,but made by man.

I firmly believe that that evil is always bubbling away under the surface,and is just waiting for an axcuse to errupt and take over mens minds.Of course in reality it's in mens minds already.

Don't get me wrong,I am not a depressed,unhappy person.I love humanity, the world and all that is in it.It's just that I have to illusions to just how cruel and degraded mankind can so easily become.

You see it's not all downhill with age,at 86 I am not over the hill, rather I am top of the hill and can see the grand design;and there is a big bit of it (mankind) that I don't really like or trust.

End of Sermon! LOL

[mallam]

You have not succeeded in counteracting the overwhelming badness of this site, either, Mr V! And even email notifications of answers never did that. They were better than nothing, but they were supposed to be sent to subscribers to questions as well as the questioners themselves, and I don't think even that ever happened: the only ones I got were of answers to my own questions.

And even if it had happened, even subscribers were expected to subscribe during a ridiculously small window of opportunity before the question was lost to view, and there was no way of bringing it back into view.

This is because all questions (even closed questions!) are listed in the order they were asked, instead of by the last answer (which would do away with the absurdly evanescent Latest Posts list). Any sane site makes it possible to resurrect questions, and on this site it is especially important that it should be, in order to correct wrong answers or give better ones.

You can give links to such questions, but people who dont like having their answers corrected or want to suppress further discussion get them removed! But here it seems you may not even have been able to do that, as the Religion-and-Spirituality forum only goes back to 6 Sept.

Or was it on some other forum? I would like to see the question to your answer!

[jake-the-peg]

I think Mr. Veritas you need to consider what your notion of 'Badness' is.

A lok of our current ideas of good and evil stem from the enlightnment period when people started to think of the individual as important and having value in himself.

Before that it was common practice to enslave people and ship them to plantations. To torture them for 'confessions' of crimes. To believe that beople who were poor as being in that state because it was God's will. We won't even go into the treatment of the mentally ill.

In the Western world the Enlightenment changed the way we thought of such things and was the start of ideas like human rights. You only have to look around at the works of charities like the Red Cross to see how far we've come.

True there are people who seek power by encouraging one group to tear up the "rule book" on a smaller vulnerable group. You see it in the news section towards Muslims a lot right now. But so far in Western society the enlightenment ideals have prevailed.

I therefore disagree that "Goodness" is in the minority but I do agree that you can't trust human nature.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilence

[Seadragon]

Hi Mr Veritas, sorry, I didn't log on this weekend and when I do log on its for short periods and I don't tend to return to threads once they disappear down (and threads move fast on CB!), so all-in-all, I'm a pretty useless person on Answerbank! I confess, I looked for an answer afew times then gave up! So I'm all over it now (laughing), but it is so nice to hear from you - when I least expect it? I don't know (still laughing!)

Just to pick you up one point, I never honestly for once considered and do consider, you to be a 'depressed, unhappy person' and certainly not 'over the hill'. You are simply a person with an opinion (smiling). What affected me and I have to say, profoundly, is that you hold this view of humanity as overwhelmingly 'evil' at a later stage in your life and you're right, people are selfish and I am no exception. I was left with a disturbing thought that I don't want to hold that opinion of humanity when I, if i ever do, reach that age in my life?

I think it's Brecht who theorized through audience catharsis that a person can only empathise with another because that person realises that what has happened to the other, could happen to them - selfish really - but I'm sure I willl be corrected if mistaken - Confucius also, I think held the belief that humans are born selfish and society teaches them morality i.e babies cry to be fed and later parents teach them the right and wrongs - or some do anyway! To continue..... before I write anymore and it doesn't appear!

[Seadragon]

I am currently reading 'Auschwitz- The Nazis and The 'Final Solution' and there is horrendous, atrocious stuff in there. But to pick up on two testimonies which I found particularly poignant despite the atrocities are:

- Silvia Vesela: 'who witnessed first hand how quickly the prevailing morality changed...'Human material is very bendable. You can do anything with it. ....Since that time I do not expect anything of people.''
- Toivi Blatt: 'Asked 'What did you learn?', and I think I'm only sure of one thing - nobody know themselves.....All of us could be good people or bad people in these (different) situations. Sometimes when somebody is really nice to me I find myself thinking, 'How will he be in Sobibor?''

I mean, you know all this and I am truly blessed at this point that I have never lived through any war or upheavel. And I think you are totally right about man's disgusting depravity and trust - no-one really knows themselves unless you have been in that situation yourself. It's a shame, but there is I think an element to selfishness inherent in all of us - No one is above the law is easily said, until it happens to you!

Sorry...i'm continuing again before I'm cut off

[Seadragon]

Anyway, I found reading the first part of your 'sermon' (excluding the email bit!) quite uncomfortable, as its true. Lords of the Flies depicts what you're saying. But the abyss bit, I thought and thought about and it was really simple in the end. I learnt 2 things - 1) that if one doesn't have some sort of a belief in God in the first place, then it doesn't matter what abyss or the depth of it is as nothing will be found there. 2) If one does hold a belief in God then looks into the abyss, that belief can be enhanced or destroyed.

So really I have nothing to say to you (laughing). Your experiences of the Concentration Camps are your own and some would say that we are the sum of our experiences. I think we can empathize and I quoted the relevant bits that affected me, that I can relate to in another way. But I finished reading your 'sermon' quite inspired! It's the last paragraph - the hill bit is just nice, the grand design is cool and the trust bit makes me realise why I keep my distance from people.

I also learnt, from you that there are too many coincidences in this world - You happen to post this now at this point, when I am reading about the Nazis (the fragile human condition in the most horrific situation) which hits upon the utter depravity of mankind and coincidence or what - but having had 'The boy in the stripped pyjamas' on my Odeon Direct list for many months - its turns up this weekend of all the weekends inbetween! (Film set during WW11, recommend it, very moving and sad)

I really and sincerely apologise for the length of these posts, which I myself find frustrating but I suppose its evident of another thing I learnt through Answerbank and that is .......I talk too much!!!
Thank you so much for your 'Sermon'. (Laughing as well)

[mibn2cweus]

To whom it may concern:

The 'mind of humanity' is a delusion absolving personal responsibility. It is the subversion and submission of the mind of the individual that leads to the sort of spectacle you witnessed at the bottom of the abyss. The wide spread and mutually supported belief that the mind of ones leaders is divinely exempt from judgment and prosecution and that no one is entitled to a mind of their own is the belief that dug that ditch. Very few would have pointed to that ditch and claimed it as the fulfillment of their personal aspirations. “I am only following orders.” was their hue and cry.

Those filling the ditch were as much victims as those who filled the ditch of a belief that justice is the providence of divine intervention, that it is not impingent on us as individuals in concert with those of like mind to define it and see to it that reason prevails in the interest of this common purpose, to achieve and maintain self-respect.

Humanity cannot be properly portrayed with one colour and should never be painted with the single stroke of one common brush. There is much more to defining our humanity than those who happen to walk on two legs and there is a much greater requirement in choosing the kind of leadership that can lead us forward than determining who wields the biggest club. Our capacity to reason is what defines us as human and our abdication of what we are and how we got here is what revokes our membership and resigns us to being the least and lowest of beast, the common leach, not by default but by choice.

There is no divine overseer of cause to whom we can point the finger of blame for our creation or destruction. We alone have written our history and only we alone have the capacity to fashion our own destiny. Won’t you join us?

[Mr Veritas]

Hello there again seadragon,
Thank you for your intelligent,interesting and thought provoking replies.
I know that you don't regard me as "depressed/unhappy/over the hill" but I put that in for others who thought I might be! LOL
I look forward to meeting you here again.
Alec.

[Seadragon]

Likewise Alec.....although you're worrying me with the 'intelligent' reference....'babbling' is probably the more appropriate word!!

Mibn2 - Who is/are 'us' exactly?

[naomi24]

When Mibs says 'us', I think he's talking about people who, like me, feel we can't generalise. Much depends upon our own determination to uphold the moral and ethical conviction we espouse in our personal philosophy, and upon our own intellectual, strength in maintaining the courage often demanded to reject the negative influence of others.

[Ankou]

i fought they was talking about some kind of movement.
like in your bowels.

[naomi24]

An afterthought, Seadragon. I haven't seen the film 'The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas', but I've read the book, and I've spoken to people who have done both. Apparently, as often happens, the film doesn't do the book justice, so I would recommend reading the book. It's very short, and is easy reading - well at least from the point of view of actually reading - but the content is highly disturbing and I don't believe I will ever forget it.

[Seadragon]

Ankou - you're very funny!

I was just thinking about Mibn2's post as it reads like a pamphlet for some Cult? There seems to be alot more behind what's written and so I was wondering whether there was a common name for the 'us?' Also there's the 3rd paragraph which just seems out of synch with the rest of it, if not somewhat contradictory? -
'There is much more to defining our humanity than those who happen to walk on two legs....'
'Our capacity to reason is what defines us as human and our abdication of what we are and how we got here.......resigns us to being the least and lowest of beast....'
I thought Mibn2 might expand on that somewhat? But I don't think they will be back on so it doesn't matter.

Thanks for the recommendation Naomi but to be honest, I don't think I want to read anymore about the Concentration Camps. Laurence Rees's 'Auschwitz:The Final Solution' has done it for me. There is some seriously disturbing stuff in there, esp in the 'Frenzied Killing' chapter and another part as well, which I won't ever forget either and makes me feel sick in the pit of my stomach just thinking about it. But it is because of this book that I understood the underlying tones in the film, otherwise I would not have understood the film in the way I did.

[naomi24]

Hopefully Mibs will come back to explain what he means, Seadragon, but if not, I can assure you he is a free-thinker, and there is no cult involved in his philosophy.

I can understand you not wanting to read any more about the holocaust - the whole thing makes any decent person sick to the stomach - and worse - but as far as the story of The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas goes, apparently the film didn't include the real outcome of the story - which was the effect the events had on the main character's father. (Sorry if that's a bit cryptic, but I wouldn't want to spoil the book for anyone who wants to read it).