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ABH, no record,glass involved,jail?
Hi all - I am a 34 yr old married man with no record and 2 young children (3+7).
Last August I was out with friends and family celebrating the birth of my brothers(policeman) new baby.Most of night was spent in a local social club playing skittles but we decided to spend last hour in local pub where the problem was.
My brother was talking to this girl - mainly about his new baby and over walked a bouncer who turns out to be girls boyfriend - suddenly she changes her friendly attitude and accuses my other brother of pinching her bottom.What resulted was a dispute between the bouncer and my policeman brother who did nothing but hold his hands up in a defensive way.I walked over towards the incident and found myself throwing 2 or 3 punches - scared for my 2 younger brothers welfare and that of my own.It all lasted 20secs and CCTV has shown the bouncer threw 1st punch.I spent nite in cells on my own because I had a glass in my hand at the time and it smashed on his head - I was only aware of this when my own mate said"you had a glass mate". I was finally charge this Feb with ABH after originally being charged with wounding with intent.He had 2 small cuts which required glueing.
My solicitor advised against pleading guilty at magistrates as I would lose all credit and the magistrates may well just give me 6 mths without any knoweldge of full facts.It know goes to Crown Court.
I may well plead guilty but have to insist the bouncer was well out of order and was just looking to make trouble that night.My younger doesnt agree or deny pinching the girls bottom but doesnt remember her making and fuss at time if he did.
My brother has siad no jail but he is my brother and I need some inpartial advise?Anyone with some views / advise would be welcome.
Last August I was out with friends and family celebrating the birth of my brothers(policeman) new baby.Most of night was spent in a local social club playing skittles but we decided to spend last hour in local pub where the problem was.
My brother was talking to this girl - mainly about his new baby and over walked a bouncer who turns out to be girls boyfriend - suddenly she changes her friendly attitude and accuses my other brother of pinching her bottom.What resulted was a dispute between the bouncer and my policeman brother who did nothing but hold his hands up in a defensive way.I walked over towards the incident and found myself throwing 2 or 3 punches - scared for my 2 younger brothers welfare and that of my own.It all lasted 20secs and CCTV has shown the bouncer threw 1st punch.I spent nite in cells on my own because I had a glass in my hand at the time and it smashed on his head - I was only aware of this when my own mate said"you had a glass mate". I was finally charge this Feb with ABH after originally being charged with wounding with intent.He had 2 small cuts which required glueing.
My solicitor advised against pleading guilty at magistrates as I would lose all credit and the magistrates may well just give me 6 mths without any knoweldge of full facts.It know goes to Crown Court.
I may well plead guilty but have to insist the bouncer was well out of order and was just looking to make trouble that night.My younger doesnt agree or deny pinching the girls bottom but doesnt remember her making and fuss at time if he did.
My brother has siad no jail but he is my brother and I need some inpartial advise?Anyone with some views / advise would be welcome.
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Are you any good at sewing mail bags and do you like porridge?
You glassed him, you've got problems, the rest is mitigation, the fact is, you glassed him.
To say you didn't know you had a glass in your hand at the time cuts no ice with me, you exercised poor judgement focus on the reasons why a custodial sentence is not in the public interest, you may get a community sentence that way.
You glassed him, you've got problems, the rest is mitigation, the fact is, you glassed him.
To say you didn't know you had a glass in your hand at the time cuts no ice with me, you exercised poor judgement focus on the reasons why a custodial sentence is not in the public interest, you may get a community sentence that way.
okay, if you want a serious answer.
it's not self-defence. if you plead guilty you will get an automatic third off your sentence. I also think it is unlikely that the court will believe the "I didn't realise I had a glass in my hand" line as they probably hear it all the time. I've certainly heard it plenty of times on here.
it's not self-defence. if you plead guilty you will get an automatic third off your sentence. I also think it is unlikely that the court will believe the "I didn't realise I had a glass in my hand" line as they probably hear it all the time. I've certainly heard it plenty of times on here.
Thanks Everton - well I can certainly say that for sure - I am taking myself out of that position totally - the furthest I go socially is to local social clubs and play skittles with my dad.
In saying that wherever I am in the future - my moto will be walk away - no matter what the situation.In this situation I wasnt talking to the girl,hadnt pinched her bum - was just defending my brothers - in the future they are big enough and ugly enough to defend themselves.
I know I was well out of order and am ashamed really - my thoughts on the bouncers actions are irrelevent.I have lost a job in sales since because I just couldnt concentrate and my wife will have to give up her job if I go to jail.I just have to keep my fingers crossed.The process has been drawn out longer than normal as a different CPS had to deal with case because of my polieman brother being involved.I just want it sorted either way! Thanks Everton!
In saying that wherever I am in the future - my moto will be walk away - no matter what the situation.In this situation I wasnt talking to the girl,hadnt pinched her bum - was just defending my brothers - in the future they are big enough and ugly enough to defend themselves.
I know I was well out of order and am ashamed really - my thoughts on the bouncers actions are irrelevent.I have lost a job in sales since because I just couldnt concentrate and my wife will have to give up her job if I go to jail.I just have to keep my fingers crossed.The process has been drawn out longer than normal as a different CPS had to deal with case because of my polieman brother being involved.I just want it sorted either way! Thanks Everton!
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Thanks Wyzard - I agree it dont sound good and I am not even going to contest to be honest(unless solicitor gives me a good reason to).
All who are close say you wont go to jail but I know in reality there is a good chance I will - I think my only hope is the fact I have had no record,family etc will go for me.Like I said to Everton there is no chance of me doing this again - I have already lost a lot.Its caused huge arguments with my brothers etc and I know have no job - just gotta hope thats all I lose!
All who are close say you wont go to jail but I know in reality there is a good chance I will - I think my only hope is the fact I have had no record,family etc will go for me.Like I said to Everton there is no chance of me doing this again - I have already lost a lot.Its caused huge arguments with my brothers etc and I know have no job - just gotta hope thats all I lose!
I reckon you're better off in crown court. If the jury finds you guilty, then your actual sentence will be down to the judge, allowing for any mandatory sentence. Despite what people say, ex-prisoners I have spoken to generally find judges fairer than magistrates and more inclined to suspend a sentence or bind you over. It really will come down to how strong a case your defence can put forward for you having acted so out of character and how remorseful you are over it.
Thanks Saxy - yes both my brother(police) and my solicitor have said Crown Court is better as magistrates have no real power or grasp of law.Do you agree pleading guilty is the correct way to go - its on CCTV and like others have said I dont really have a case for self defense and any mitigation isnt really viable.
My only defense really is my previous character and hopefully convincing judge I wont re-offend.
Thanks again Saxy!
My only defense really is my previous character and hopefully convincing judge I wont re-offend.
Thanks again Saxy!
-- answer removed --
You will be asked to enter your plea at the magistrates’ court. If you plead not guilty or withhold your plea the magistrates will decide where your trial is to be held. Looking at the outline of this offence it looks likely that they will retain jurisdiction but it depends largely on how serious they view the incident and the resulting injury when given the full facts. If they do you have the final choice of a trial by jury (but note that you do not have the right to a trial in the magistrates’ court if they decline jurisdiction). Whatever the decision on the venue for the trial (whether you make it or the magistrates) it is irrevocable.
If you wish to plead guilty at the earliest opportunity (and so receive maximum discount for that plea) you will have to do so at the magistrates’ court. If you do the magistrates will have the option of sentencing you themselves. Their maximum is six months and they can impose this despite your guilty plea by saying that the discount has been awarded by not sending you to the Crown Court for sentence. Alternatively they may send you to the Crown Court where the maximum sentence there for this offence is five years.
I do not understand your solicitor’s advice against pleading guilty at the magistrates’ court. If you want to plead guilty as early as possible it is the place to do so. It will not materially affect the sentence, will speed matters up considerably and will enable you to gain maximum credit for a guilty plea.
If you wish to plead guilty at the earliest opportunity (and so receive maximum discount for that plea) you will have to do so at the magistrates’ court. If you do the magistrates will have the option of sentencing you themselves. Their maximum is six months and they can impose this despite your guilty plea by saying that the discount has been awarded by not sending you to the Crown Court for sentence. Alternatively they may send you to the Crown Court where the maximum sentence there for this offence is five years.
I do not understand your solicitor’s advice against pleading guilty at the magistrates’ court. If you want to plead guilty as early as possible it is the place to do so. It will not materially affect the sentence, will speed matters up considerably and will enable you to gain maximum credit for a guilty plea.
Reading a bit more of your later answers, I don’t know why you feel magistrates have no power or grasp of the law. It is true that their powers are limited (and that’s a very good reason for having your matter dealt with by them instead of at the Crown Court) but many magistrates are very experienced in dealing with low level crime and very competent in applying discretion and common sense where appropriate. You should think long and hard before you insist on this matter being dealt with in the higher court.
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Okay - this solicitor has come highly reccomended by my brother who is a policeman in the same area as this crime took place.He is a well known criminal solicitor and I am quite lucky to get him.Perhaps there is something I have failed to mention that makes his decision of no plea more realistic.I dont know?
Thanks very much though for your comments Eddie + New Judge.Please be aware that when I pleaded no plea the CPS solicitor asked for it to be heared in Crown Court at thats where it is now going.I go back to magistrates on 20th May - not really sure what will happen at this hearing but my solicitor has mentioned that if the posecution hasnt got all their stuff together by then then there will be grounds to have case thrown out.Maybe this is another reason why he advised a no plea.My solicitor has a lot of experience with the magistrates court in question so has good experience of how they work.
Maybe he hasnt given me the best advise but its advise I took and I presume now it must go to Crown Court?
Thanks very much though for your comments Eddie + New Judge.Please be aware that when I pleaded no plea the CPS solicitor asked for it to be heared in Crown Court at thats where it is now going.I go back to magistrates on 20th May - not really sure what will happen at this hearing but my solicitor has mentioned that if the posecution hasnt got all their stuff together by then then there will be grounds to have case thrown out.Maybe this is another reason why he advised a no plea.My solicitor has a lot of experience with the magistrates court in question so has good experience of how they work.
Maybe he hasnt given me the best advise but its advise I took and I presume now it must go to Crown Court?
See page 17 of this document:
http://www.sentencing...inst-the%20person.pdf
Unless there are very exceptional circumstances (which a judge must explain in open court) judges are obliged to stick to the guidelines you see there.
However those sentences refer to a first-time offender convicted after a trial. Pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity can see a reduction of one third in a custodial sentence (or an appropriate reduction in the level and length of a community order).
As the assault wasn't premeditated, the bottom line of the table seems to be the one the judge will refer to, so a community order seems to be the most likely sentence.
You're lucky that the victim's injuries were relatively minor. If the CPS had managed to get 'GBH with intent' to stick, you'd probably be looking at a sentence of 4 to 5 years imprisonment. (See the table on page 13 of that sentencing document).
Chris
http://www.sentencing...inst-the%20person.pdf
Unless there are very exceptional circumstances (which a judge must explain in open court) judges are obliged to stick to the guidelines you see there.
However those sentences refer to a first-time offender convicted after a trial. Pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity can see a reduction of one third in a custodial sentence (or an appropriate reduction in the level and length of a community order).
As the assault wasn't premeditated, the bottom line of the table seems to be the one the judge will refer to, so a community order seems to be the most likely sentence.
You're lucky that the victim's injuries were relatively minor. If the CPS had managed to get 'GBH with intent' to stick, you'd probably be looking at a sentence of 4 to 5 years imprisonment. (See the table on page 13 of that sentencing document).
Chris
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