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Assault on Ian Tomlinson immediately prior to his death
So if the DPP reckon they can't prove beyond reasonable doubt that the assault by the police officer actually caused Ian Tomlinson's death;
should we expect the officer to at least be prosecuted for assault?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/...gland-london-10723274
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should we expect the officer to at least be prosecuted for assault?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/...gland-london-10723274
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OK here's the proof the DPP are right.
Look at the comments here - we're not a representative cross section of who would make up a jury - but we're probably not far off.
There's no agreement here - there's a strong likelihood there would be no agreement from a jury.
They don't press charges unless there is a strong liklihood of sucess.
Looking at the differences of opinion here (and I respect others I think they're defensible - I just disagree) do you think a jury would convict?
that's the test
Look at the comments here - we're not a representative cross section of who would make up a jury - but we're probably not far off.
There's no agreement here - there's a strong likelihood there would be no agreement from a jury.
They don't press charges unless there is a strong liklihood of sucess.
Looking at the differences of opinion here (and I respect others I think they're defensible - I just disagree) do you think a jury would convict?
that's the test
Zeuhl is right.......Tomlinson may have been being a drunken annoying pain in the @r$e to the police but he was posing no threat to them
What would happen if coppers in Britain reacted like this every time they encountered annoying drunks in the street?
The copper just lost his rag and should have been charged with assault
What would happen if coppers in Britain reacted like this every time they encountered annoying drunks in the street?
The copper just lost his rag and should have been charged with assault
Rewatching the video, my best 'mind read' of the officer is that he was irritated by Tomlinson and the attack was perpetrated to punish him.
The argument about clearing the area doesn't hold water because the police were delayed for longer waiting for the guy to pick himself up. And the attack was more than a shove on someone who was unsteady on their feet. It applied force calculated to knock down most people when delivered from behind without warning.
If 'being irritated' by someone who ignores you is sufficient grounds perhaps it will be a defence used in court by others accused of assaulting someone from behind.
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The argument about clearing the area doesn't hold water because the police were delayed for longer waiting for the guy to pick himself up. And the attack was more than a shove on someone who was unsteady on their feet. It applied force calculated to knock down most people when delivered from behind without warning.
If 'being irritated' by someone who ignores you is sufficient grounds perhaps it will be a defence used in court by others accused of assaulting someone from behind.
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Sqad
Let's give the officer in question the benefit of the doubt and say he is a reasonable bloke and a good officer most of the time.
I suspect he now wishes more than anything he had resisted the temptation to take out his frustration on a harmless drunk and just bided his time as he probably would have walked off anyway.
BTW still can't work out your 'how high?' post
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Let's give the officer in question the benefit of the doubt and say he is a reasonable bloke and a good officer most of the time.
I suspect he now wishes more than anything he had resisted the temptation to take out his frustration on a harmless drunk and just bided his time as he probably would have walked off anyway.
BTW still can't work out your 'how high?' post
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One thing that always get me about a debate like this is we take away the human point of view.
We take it all in isolation and argue points, without the human reaction, right or wrong.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
I respect all view points because I don't have the answer and I never will.
I have a question what was Tomlinson doing there? Walking home through a riot?
We take it all in isolation and argue points, without the human reaction, right or wrong.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
I respect all view points because I don't have the answer and I never will.
I have a question what was Tomlinson doing there? Walking home through a riot?
Zeuhl....LOL it was to highlight that discipline and obeying orders, which are important in my view, have slipped badly in the UK. It is almost impossible now to discipline someone without them taking action of some kind.
As a child I was often told..."just do what you are told" and that has been with me throughout my life. Now the philosophy seems to be...." bu99er you Charlie, I´m alright"
But there again, I am of the old, out of step generation.
As a child I was often told..."just do what you are told" and that has been with me throughout my life. Now the philosophy seems to be...." bu99er you Charlie, I´m alright"
But there again, I am of the old, out of step generation.
It wasn't in any official or actual sense 'a riot'.
Tomlinson worked in the area, none of the streets had been legally designated as 'no go'. He wasn't committing any offence by being there.
When I worked in London I walked through demonstrations on two occasions because they were on my route - I was not taking part but believed I was entitled to still walk the streets without interference as long as I was not partaking in anything unlawful.
If asked by the police to cooperate in some way in their policing of the situation I would have considered it, but I certainly won't tolerate any attempt to bully or threaten me.
Authority is good but it needs a healthy balance of respect and questioning.
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Tomlinson worked in the area, none of the streets had been legally designated as 'no go'. He wasn't committing any offence by being there.
When I worked in London I walked through demonstrations on two occasions because they were on my route - I was not taking part but believed I was entitled to still walk the streets without interference as long as I was not partaking in anything unlawful.
If asked by the police to cooperate in some way in their policing of the situation I would have considered it, but I certainly won't tolerate any attempt to bully or threaten me.
Authority is good but it needs a healthy balance of respect and questioning.
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Cheers Sqad
I suppose my last post addresses your view on authority with mine which is only slightly different.
I've been in some lawless places in my time which were uncomfortable, but i still feel sick in the pit of my stomach when I am in some places where there is in my opinion, a little too much respect for authority.
For example, in the States (the land of the free) when someone in uniform with a gun on their hip walks into a public area and announces 'OK everyone - listen up!' and all the citizens snap to attention; it drives me nuts!
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I suppose my last post addresses your view on authority with mine which is only slightly different.
I've been in some lawless places in my time which were uncomfortable, but i still feel sick in the pit of my stomach when I am in some places where there is in my opinion, a little too much respect for authority.
For example, in the States (the land of the free) when someone in uniform with a gun on their hip walks into a public area and announces 'OK everyone - listen up!' and all the citizens snap to attention; it drives me nuts!
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-- answer removed --
We all need to bear in mind (especially those who are suggesting this or that should have happened) that we are looking at snippets of information fed by the media. The investigating authorities have looked at all the evidence in detail.
Nonetheless, there seems to be some agreement here that a charge of Common Assault may have been appropriate and not a more serious charge of Murder of Manslaughter.
That being the case, as has been pointed out, there was never a possibility of that charge being brought after 1st October 2009. Common Assault is a summary offence which can only be dealt with by magistrates and the information to support such a charge must be before the court within six months of the alleged offence. There are no exceptions.
The fault for that failure lays with the IPCC and the CPS and the seemingly interminable length of time they took to review what is fairly straightforward evidence. This is a common trend with such investigations and whilst they should be thorough, there is no need for them to take so long. It seems that a charge of assault may have been possible, but whether that – with its maximum sentence of 6 months custody - would have satisfied Mr Tomlinson’s family is extremely doubtful.
Nonetheless, there seems to be some agreement here that a charge of Common Assault may have been appropriate and not a more serious charge of Murder of Manslaughter.
That being the case, as has been pointed out, there was never a possibility of that charge being brought after 1st October 2009. Common Assault is a summary offence which can only be dealt with by magistrates and the information to support such a charge must be before the court within six months of the alleged offence. There are no exceptions.
The fault for that failure lays with the IPCC and the CPS and the seemingly interminable length of time they took to review what is fairly straightforward evidence. This is a common trend with such investigations and whilst they should be thorough, there is no need for them to take so long. It seems that a charge of assault may have been possible, but whether that – with its maximum sentence of 6 months custody - would have satisfied Mr Tomlinson’s family is extremely doubtful.
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