Hunting ban enforcement

[QmunkE]

To my mind, this new law is unenforceable in its current form. I'm not totally sure of the punishment structuring, but if fines/community service/jail sentences are the only options, then there is plenty of evidence that these bans will not have a complete impact on the sport.

If the breeding of hunting dogs was outlawed, would this not solve the problem eventually?

[Loosehead]

You're right, the ban is unenforceable. The trouble is, it is not illegal to go riding in fancy dress with some dogs. Even if they are hunting a fox it is still legal if the fox is shot. I can't see the police spending the time on this. It will be virtually impossible to prove anyway. You've got to hand it to Blair, he'a managed to please all the anti hunt crowd and at the same time he hasn't really banned hunting at all, priceless. I'll stick my neck out here and say that there will not be a sucessful prosecution for years, if ever.

I suppose the ban on breeding idea would work in the end but that could soon be circumvented by introducing some sort of breed variation and then a load of legal wrangling.

[londondave]

The police will uphold the law and take any offenders to court, it will be then up to the jury whether they are guilty or not. These difiant toffs who say they will carry on hunting and are prepared to go to prison. "HA" I would love to see that. They wont want to go back a second time.

[Mowbray]

I cannot understand why these hunters go out and track down a fox and letting their hounds rip the poor animal apart.  They may argue that a fox is classed as a pest for farmers etc, but I find the whole idea appauling!

I think they are sick and cruel. 

[Loosehead]

Yes but do you think the ban is enforcable Mowbray?

[ursula62]

I'm against hunting from an animal cruelty point of view, but attitudes like London Dave's don't help the cause of the animals at all.

All people will focus on is the "difiant toffs" part of what he said. Therefore that gives ammo to the Countryside Alliance that banning hunting isn't about animal cruelty at all, but about class distinctions and townies -v- the rural set.

If you are going to protest against hunting, please try and avoid classist attitudes as it only damages your argument.

[camille79]

I agree completely Loosehead, and would cite the recent example up here in Scotland where hunting has officially been banned for some time.  A recent case saw a case against the Huntmaster not proven for exactly the reason's Loosehead gave.  And I know of several hunts which still go out despite the ban!

IMHO this has been a convenient smokescreen for the government - lots of posturing and "we are acting in the interests of the british people" type spiel while there are a heck of a lot more pressing issues we should be worrying about.

In terms of animal cruelty, it seems a bit of a small issue when compared to factory farming etc.  But then, increasing the price of chicken by 3-fold isn't so much of a vote winner, no matter how much better it is in terms of animal cruelty!

[andy hughes]

Given that most police forces have had their mounted sections either scaled down, or disbanded altogether, it will be interesting to see how the police plan to follow a hunt and witness an illegal kill, and then aprehend one or more of those who are present. Somehow I don't think a souped-up Astra will quite be up to the task.

[Englishbird]

I'm the anti hunt crowd and blair hasn't pleased me!! As much as i would love to see hunting with hounds stopped, I think this is a load of tosh. I agree with camille 79 in that it's a smoke screen, there's an election coming up and it draws a certain amount of coverage away from the debacle that is iraq.

I'm also what some might class as 'a toff' and agree that it doesn't help labelling people.  A lot of my friends go hunting and I am yet to be given ONE reason why they can't replace every hunt in the country with a drag hunt....

[woofgang]

something that hasn't been discussed is the land that people hunt over I understand that the forestry commision and the national Trust have both withdrawn licences to hunt over their  land as of course they cannot collude with breaking the law. It would be interesting to know what the dukes of lancaster and cornwall are going to do!

[littleoldme]

camille79's tale of the Scottish huntmaster shows the problem. He received a 'case not proven' verdict. I assume, and camille79 or any other Scottish poster is welcome to correct me here, that 'not proven' essentially means "we still think you're guilty, chum, and we'll be keeping an eye on you, but we don't have enough evidence to send you down this time, you lucky S of a B".

In English courts of course, we don't have this option. It's all very black and white - guilty or not guilty. In other words, branding someone a criminal or letting them off scot (no pun intended) free. Unless the evidence is irrefutable (as Loosehead says, how do you prove they're not just a bunch of fancy-dress loving horse riders taking their pack of baying, bloodthirsty foxhounds for a run across the fields?), I'm afraid that judges and juries will take the latter course.

[jimmer]

badly written or unpolicable legislation is not a new phenonemum, phemonimim, um, thing. drug enforcement and speeding come immediately to mind. it is difficult to say what effect this legislation will have until it has been tested in court. However, if it is  "uninforceable" then why do the huntsmen bellow so much? I come from the country and can say without a moments pause that most hunters (as opposed to those who serve the hunt) are a bunch of stuck up nouveau riche bleep bleep bleep who are about as representitive of the countryside as canary wharf. they give plainly daft arguments that fox hunting is a pest control but then say they hardly ever catch them. they damage the countryside with their flippin big horses and they pay their employees peanuts. i for one am completely glad they are being pushed out. Blair - who i don't like - had to force the bill through so it had to be watered down. it will still be effective in the long run.

 

jim

[woofgang]

jimmer, I live in hampshire and can honestly say that here hunting isn't a class thing and I think that it does undermine the argument to base it on class. I am delighted to see hunting banned and think that while this law is not completely enforceable (like speeding, breaking into people's houses, vandalising their cars, the list is endless) it is a flag in the ground. I understand that it is still legal  to chase a fox and then shoot it, but you can't use any more than 2 dogs to do so?

The other thing which I think is important is to separate hunting from genuine rural problems, eg lack of public transport, loss of facilities etcet. The pro hunters would have you believe that they are all the same thing and they are NOT

[KebabMeister]

If the hunts didn't breed foxes in the same place then they wouldn't have to hunt them.  Two faced gits they are!

[Dom Tuk]

The police can only gather evidence and it is for the crown prosecution service to decide if it can get a successful prosecution in the courts. Now if the hunt shoots the fox then it is legal and there can be no prosecution. Its is going to be a very tall order for the police to gather evidence that shows that a fox was hunted and killed by the dogs. You cannot legislate against all the fanfare and tally hos. You could classify foxes as not vermin and issue licences for their legal cull. That would then take the dogs out of the picture. 

[Shire]

Englishbird - there are several reasons why fox hunts cannot convert to drag hunting.

1. Many farmers and other landowners allow the hunt to cross their land as it is providing a service - getting rid of the fox - whereas a drag hunt does not, so they are often not allowed to cross land that a normal hunt would, thus restricting their range.

2. Drag hunting is much faster, and requires a different breed of hound - one that is capable of going much faster, without needing the frequent stops that occur naturally in fox hunting, therefore current fox-hunting hounds would not be suitable for drag hunting. I imagine that fox hunts that do convert to hunting a false trail will still have these stops built into their route.

3. As drag hunting is much faster, it also uses different, faster horses, and needs greater riding ability, so not all riders who follow hounds would be able to go drag hunting.

[eupraxia]

To my mind there is only one way to make the ban enforcable. Make the fox a protected animal.

Its is after all the only natural dog in this country now since the hunters got rid of wolves.

I know getting rid of their habitat didn't help but thats whats happening to the foxes to because of farming. Roads don't help either. We don't need hunters to keep the numbers down.

Foxes do not on average, as the hunters would have you believe, attack sheep. They do have a likeing for chicken but then don't we all. A well built chichen house will sort that out.

If I had say a group of 3 or more dogs and they attacked a cat or some other animal I would rightly be prosicuted. So what makes hunters feel they are different.

I'm sorry but the hunting freternity have no good arguments for keeping it. Other than they are at the end of the day a blood thirsty, sick group of people.

[Englishbird]

Shire - surely if it is a drag hunt or an artificial hunt, they can dictate the course and the speed?

"they would need faster horses" - well it's a new arguement i'll give you that :o) I don't mean to be rude, but i said i hadn't had one 'good' arguement, and i'm afraid i still haven't.

[davver]

To return to the subject of the new law (the rights and wrongs of fox hunting have been long discussed, on this website as elsewhere), there is another flaw. Not only is it pretty much unenforceable, but it will not improve animal welfare one jot. Now whether you think hunting is the most wonderful activity on earth, or the most depraved and barbaric, this absolutely negates any reason given for this legislation.

Think about it. If foxes are a pest, then they will be shot, snared, or poisoned instead of hunted. This means that, instead of being chased and then either getting clean away or being killed fairly quickly, they will likely be injured by shot, caught and trapped until they choke or bleed to death or have to gnaw off a leg to get free or they will die frothing at the mouth and in torturous pain. Foxes have no natural predators, and their only food chain competitor is man. If it were not for the invention of the motor car, there would probably already have been a population explosion. Even as it is, there are lots of diseased foxes around - a sign of over-population. If the fox numbers were smaller, they would be healthier.

Banning hunting is probably the worst possible thing to do with regards to the welfare of foxes - their lives and deaths. Paradox though it may seem.