pardon??

[swedeheart]

The other day following the royal engagement a couple of Swedish newspapers covered the story - rather loosely and probably with a lot of second hand info they had just translated from British press, I suspect. I was very puzzled by a short paragraph about Kate Middletons mother. The implication was she was, by many, considered... a bit plebeian, perhaps... "because she uses words like 'toilet' and 'pardon'". These two words had not been translated to Swedish so one can only assume they did mean exactly those words.

Now, 'toilet' I can understand - we do have euphemisms in Sweden too - but 'pardon'? How is that impolite or chavvy? Is it really?

As several of you know, I'm asking from the point of view of the born and bred Swede that I am, so if it seems odd that I found it odd, that'll be why:)

[ladyalex]

http://en.wikipedia.o...i/U_and_non-U_English

Have a look here.

[ABerrant]

Excuse me!

[starone]

Poor woman. I feel so sorry for her. She's going to have to watch every word she says. And it's really not important is it?

[swedeheart]

Oh Gaawd...! As if I'm not having enough trouble as it is, remembering what's British and what's American... But hey thanks ladyalex!

No not important to me Starbuckone, I just wasn't aware of that particular distinction.

[joggerjayne]

"Pardon" is an awful word, used by misguided aspirationalists.

You might say "pardon me" if you farted in front of the Vicar, but not "pardon" if you simply hadn't heard what someone said.

[Buenchico]

'Toilet' is definitely classed as being very vulgar. The 'upper classes' don't (generally) use euphemisms; they simply say 'lavatory'.

On housing estates across the UK, parents admonish their children for saying 'What?', and tell them that must say 'Pardon?' instead. However the upper classes again regard that as being vulgar. 'What?' is acceptable, with the full phrase 'I beg your pardon' being regarded as possibly slightly more polite.

Chris

[scotman]

Hi Swedeheart

About pardon. This is probably referring to the short form of 'I beg your pardon' which means 'What did you just say'. Possibly the shorter form is regarded as common in some circles. Same with 'toilet'
It also depends where in the UK you live as the words such as toilet, loo, bathroom, small boys(girls) room etc seem to have regional roots.


Have you found out what the font is yet?

[ladyalex]

Swipe me how very U of you, Joggerjane.

It matters to me not a jot.

Glad to be of assistance, Swedeheart. Good luck de-coding everyone's language.
But worry not about your own social status, the British find it almost impossible to 'place' foreigners socially.

[sandyRoe]

If u thought that the vicar hadn't heard the phart should you say pardon anyway just to be on the safe side?

[joggerjayne]

LOL LadyA ...

=0D

It does irritate me when (as Chris says) children instinctively say "what?" and their parents then "put them wrong" by telling them to say "pardon".

[joggerjayne]

Sandy ...

You should always be truthful to Vicars, so maybe you should say ...

"Vicar, I have just farted. I do apologise."

[swedeheart]

This is all very enlightening, folks (that's American BTW;-) I shall have to revisit Upstairs Downstairs... Nah that's the least of my worries, ladyalex, I'm just interested, that's all. I couldn't pass as 'U' even in my own language and have no wish to. /LOL at the fart.

Nope John I have had to prioritise a lot, lately, so haven't got round to it.

(Prioritise is another one of those love-to-hate words isn't it...)

[Answerprancer]

I was brought up to believe that the word toilet is "plebby", and similarly "lounge" (instead of living or drawing room). I whince if I ever have to use the word toilet, even now. I say "loo" or "lavatory".
Here's a couple more: "serviette" instead of napkin, "pleased to meetchya" instead of "how do you do" (yuck).
I think even "bog" or "khazi" is better than toilet. We used to pronounce it "torrlet" sometimes, in parody.
There is a book called "U and Non-U Revisited" that has all this covered !

[ladyalex]

I always thought that the appropriate response when breaking wind in front of a vicar was to ask "More tea , vicar ?"
But then, I'm Scottish and don't rub shoulders with many vicars.

[swedeheart]

Had a look at that book Answerprancer but it seems it's quite old...? Even British English changes doesn't it. One wouldn't want to learn to speak in the manner of seventies U;-)

Ladyalex, I think it was Péter Esterházy who wrote about some emperor or king who was in the habit of breaking wind every five minutes and could not apologise of course, so his guests/servants et cetera would have to take turns taking responsibility for what had... erm... passed, but on one occasion nobody seemed up to it and there was a silence. Until one of them couldn't take the pressure anymore and yelled "I'll take this one, for the nation!" Something like that...

[sophie_1003]

I think "What?" sounds so rude compared to "Pardon?" had never heard of "What?" being polite and upper-class before! Also; some of the terms on that Wiki site seem very American rather than upper-class English but maybe I just don't hang around with posh enough people?

[swedeheart]

I was so surprised too sophie, by 'what'/'pardon' and by several others. 'Rich'/'wealthy' and 'die'/'pass on' for instance - I would definitely have reversed them, had this been a test. But I've only ever been to Britain for one week and never to any other country where any kind of English is spoken, so I'm aware I'm no authority, ha ha! I've noticed 'U' persons in films to say What? on a few occasions but I have thought of it as subtle dramaturgy - a way for the playwright to say "he may be Lord so-and-so but he's still rude"... so yeah this thread has been a revelation for me.
---
PS I suspect I haven't done Péter Esterházy justice with that story i quoted, it was funnier where I read it... oh well...

[jno]

'I beg your pardon' (='I beg you to pardon me') basically means 'I apologise'. So you might apologise to someone for not hearing him and asking him to repeat what he said, or for letting noxious gases escape under his nose. I just say 'Sorry?' with a rising intonation and stick my ear trumpet under the speaker's nose. If passing aristocrats object to this, I hit them with it.

[swedeheart]

Yeah but no but yeah but no but not giving a damn is also the true mark of the aristocrat jno so you're still one up on me;-)

[ladyalex]

The version of the Esterhazy story that I heard, many moons ago , was that a very 'U' lady was at dinner having the same problem as the emperor you mention. On the first occasion, the gentleman to her right excused himself. On the second occasion , the gentleman on her left excused himself. When she did it a third time, after a short pause the gentleman opposite her said 'Have that one on me, Ma'am.'
(Thus proving, of course, that he was not 'quite' a gentleman.)