Red Arrows tragedy again ..............

[Ann]

Isn't this so sad - only weeks after the first pilot was killed now another accident. I do hope this doesn't mean the end of the wonderful Red Arrows who have brought us so much pleasure over the years. Our thoughts and prayers are with the family of the pilot killed today.
http://www.dailymail....ccident.html#comments

[WELSHYORKIE]

Very true Ann - apparently another fault with the ejector seat by all accounts. Another tragic accident.

[emmie]

I was watching the news and seems an awful accident, hope they don't close the Red Arrows down permanently.

[venator]

How old are those planes?

[DTCwordfan]

Look this is speculation but there was allusion last night that it was a combination of perhaps some tech failure on the seat and pilot error - the fact that they have not grounded other Hawks is indicative that this is more of an isolated incident.

It is a tragedy indeed and the family must be gutted.

[Old_Geezer]

Not seen the details reported, but I thought ejectors were supposed to save rather than take lives ? Is it known that they don't when the aircraft is on the ground ?

[Booldawg]

it says in the article that the RAF had already grounded their entire fleet of Hawk T1s due to problems concerning the ejector seat., so there was a known problem.

[jake-the-peg]

After Bournmouth I did say they've been having a few accidents recently

http://en.wikipedia.o...cidents_and_accidents

4 in the last 8 years compared to 6 in the first 30 years

I guess that's 5 now

whether it's ageing planes or pilot error this is begining to look like quite a few "isolated incidents"

[DTCwordfan]

Well obviously they do not - from the quick web scan, it seems the minimum height that they work is as low as 200ft off the ground - not all models.

Also the pictures showed that the canopy was broken, suggesting he had gone through that, so he wouldn't have really stood much chance of survival as the force on these seats is pretty amazing with the explosives. The pilot typically experiences an acceleration of about 12–14 g force (117–137 m/s²).

[DTCwordfan]

BBC News said no fleet grounding last night...so some mixed signals there

[flump1]

Ann, I agree , this is awfully sad, I have not heard of an accident within this brilliant team of airmen until this year .....now there has been two. It must be agony for colleagues ( families and friends of course ) . Like you I sincerely hope they continue flying, they are superb.

[jake-the-peg]

5 in 8 years?

Can you really put that down to isolated incidents in your mind?

Because I'm having difficulty doing so

It would be dreadful if there was a bad accident with members of the public and it was discovered there was a problem that could have been identified earlier

[venator]

The Red Arrows got Hawk trainers in 1979 - over 30 years ago.

Can't help wondering if many of these planes are originals, and whether maintenance is being skimped due to cuts and RAF commitments elsewhere.

[jackthehat]

Maintenance is never 'skimped'.....it is too critical and the repercussions could be dreadful if not carried out diligently.

[237SJ]

Propably too early to know what the problem is yet. Presumably the last death was pilot error. This ones sounds like a tech problem. It could be a faulty part. Could be anything but almost certainly tech and not pilot error.

[Ratty2E]

It is terrible news made worse by the fact that the memorial service for Flt Lt Jon Egging was only last week. We don't know what has happened yet so it's all speculation although there has been ejector seat problems in the past. There would be no skimping it's far too important and the crews too dilligent not to do their jobs properly.

[Ratty2E]

237SJ I think Flt Lt Jon Eggings accident was due to bird strike not pilot error.

[237SJ]

OK. I must have been away as I didn`t hear that bit.

[New Judge]

The Martin-Baker ejector seats are among the most reliable and safest bits of kit in aviation technology. MB seats have saved more than 7,000 lives since the company was formed and have seen 32 safe ejections this year alone.

The type fitted to the Hawk is capable of safe ejection from “zero/zero” airspeed and altitude. However, its major drawback lies not with the seat but with the way the canopy is dealt with. In most aircraft the canopy is jettisoned before ejection and the pilot and seat are propelled through the open space. However, along with the recently retired Harrier, ejection from the Hawk is designed to take place through the canopy (which is shattered a few milliseconds before ejection by an explosive charge).

Details have not been released as to the cause of this tragedy, but there is a possibility that the pilot may have been ejected either through an unshattered canopy and/or whilst he was not strapped to the seat. The ejector seat is “made safe” whenever the aircraft is on the ground by a large, well marked safety pin which locks the firing handle. This is withdrawn by the aircrew as very much the last action before the aircraft moves off and should be replaced as soon as the aircraft is in a safe situation on the ground. Quite what happened at Scampton is anybody’s guess.