Spectator N0 2680 : "Two Of A...
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How Often Are Pre Sentence Reports Followed By Judges In The Magistrates Court ?
36 Answers
Hi
I will try and keep this as short as possible.
4 years ago I was I was convicted of Fraud by False Representation and given community service.
2 months ago I was convicted again for the same thing.
A 11k Fraud, which I can pay off as a family member has helped out financially.
I am due in Court on Wednesday 26/10 to get sentenced.
I am scared as my family rely on me and I don’t want to be away from my son.
May sound selfish, but both times I did it because I had money issues, that is not the case now as I have got closer to my family and they have promised to help out going forward.
The pre sentencing report advised Community service but I am so scared that I may go down.
I have never been in trouble with the law other then these 2 times.
I plead guilty at the first opportunity.
The arresting officer keeps showing up as well, which I find strange.
Any Advise would be great
I will try and keep this as short as possible.
4 years ago I was I was convicted of Fraud by False Representation and given community service.
2 months ago I was convicted again for the same thing.
A 11k Fraud, which I can pay off as a family member has helped out financially.
I am due in Court on Wednesday 26/10 to get sentenced.
I am scared as my family rely on me and I don’t want to be away from my son.
May sound selfish, but both times I did it because I had money issues, that is not the case now as I have got closer to my family and they have promised to help out going forward.
The pre sentencing report advised Community service but I am so scared that I may go down.
I have never been in trouble with the law other then these 2 times.
I plead guilty at the first opportunity.
The arresting officer keeps showing up as well, which I find strange.
Any Advise would be great
Answers
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The pre sentence report is normally followed by the magistrate but it does not have to be. In this case I think another community service sentence is the most likely. But with 3 offences in 4 years and the last offence being only 2 months ago you could end up in jail!
You really need to find a way to convince the court that you have learnt your lesson this time! You have had two chances and blown them both. This could be 3rd time unlucky !
You really need to find a way to convince the court that you have learnt your lesson this time! You have had two chances and blown them both. This could be 3rd time unlucky !
Sorry Just to clarify, I was in court on 27th September where the pre report was done, but a family member gave me the money to pay the full 11k off and the police have realised this exact amount is now in my account so they want to seize it rather then me give it, so they were given 4 weeks to sort this out, which is why I am in on 26th.
This is only my 2nd offence, 1 4 years ago and this one.
The thing that worries me is the copper who is a known *** (my solicitor made a complaint against him) is coming to every hearing etc and keeps whispering in the prosecutions ear, this doubled up with the fact it is being held in the Old Bailey has got me *** myself.
I am happy as hell to have community service I just don’t want to be away from my son.
This is only my 2nd offence, 1 4 years ago and this one.
The thing that worries me is the copper who is a known *** (my solicitor made a complaint against him) is coming to every hearing etc and keeps whispering in the prosecutions ear, this doubled up with the fact it is being held in the Old Bailey has got me *** myself.
I am happy as hell to have community service I just don’t want to be away from my son.
Can you give us a clue as to what the *** word is , the copper is a known *** ? It is important, as we need to understand what we are dealing with!
The first and last letter and the numbers of letters in the word will do as a clue!
The fact that someone gave you the cash to pay off the money you defrauded does nothing to explain why you committed a second fraud the same as the first one.
In fact it may well harm your case !, the police will have seen your bank account , and that it has £11,000 in it . They will assume that it is the proceeds of the crime. You will need the person who gave you the money to prove to the court that the money is the cash they gave you and not the proceeds of the crime.
Sorry, but that is how the police work, you have defrauded £11,000 and there is the exact same amount sitting in your bank account! As the police see it , it is proof you took the money. You need to prove them wrong!
The first and last letter and the numbers of letters in the word will do as a clue!
The fact that someone gave you the cash to pay off the money you defrauded does nothing to explain why you committed a second fraud the same as the first one.
In fact it may well harm your case !, the police will have seen your bank account , and that it has £11,000 in it . They will assume that it is the proceeds of the crime. You will need the person who gave you the money to prove to the court that the money is the cash they gave you and not the proceeds of the crime.
Sorry, but that is how the police work, you have defrauded £11,000 and there is the exact same amount sitting in your bank account! As the police see it , it is proof you took the money. You need to prove them wrong!
The days list for the Old Bailey cases are here.
https:/
So on the 26th I will look to see what your case is.
But as I thought all the Baileys 14 courts are only for serious cases!
https:/
So on the 26th I will look to see what your case is.
But as I thought all the Baileys 14 courts are only for serious cases!
Hi
I was under stress as I was about to lose my job and came into card details of a London based football club (not a big premier league club) and did what I did
As they are based in London it just goes through the London courts and was told the old bailey was just London’s main court, I was told not to worry about it being there by my barrister.
They are cuss words about the copper, he is not nice, but I guess London CID are not meant to be.
In regards to the money they will be able to see where it comes from and like I said it is to pay the fraud off, so they are more then happy to take it.
I am not needing to pay anything as I am on legal aid.
I was under stress as I was about to lose my job and came into card details of a London based football club (not a big premier league club) and did what I did
As they are based in London it just goes through the London courts and was told the old bailey was just London’s main court, I was told not to worry about it being there by my barrister.
They are cuss words about the copper, he is not nice, but I guess London CID are not meant to be.
In regards to the money they will be able to see where it comes from and like I said it is to pay the fraud off, so they are more then happy to take it.
I am not needing to pay anything as I am on legal aid.
Legal aid does not necessarily pay all the court costs. You will also get a large fine as well as having to repay the money defrauded. The fine will not be paid by legal aid. This assumes you do not get sent to prison which I am sorry to say is still a possibility.
You still need the person who gave you the money to give the police/court proof that it was them who gave you the money. For all the police know you may have given your relative the money after you took it and they put it back into your account.
You still need the person who gave you the money to give the police/court proof that it was them who gave you the money. For all the police know you may have given your relative the money after you took it and they put it back into your account.
Just a further point, if you were going in a position to pay the entire amount back you should have said so it you went to court. That way it would have been taken into account for the pre-sentence report. Now it is going to look like you took the money and handed it to a relative so as to keep it hidden and only got them to give it back once you were convicted.
Sorry but you have to be able to see this from the other side as well!
As I said you MUST get proof that the relative gave you the money!
Sorry but you have to be able to see this from the other side as well!
As I said you MUST get proof that the relative gave you the money!
Are you sure you are telling us everything?
Take a look at the Magistrates’ sentencing guidelines:
https:/
Click on “Magistrates’ Court Sentencing Guidelines” and then go to page 307 of the document. There you will see categories of “Culpability” and I would, from your description, place yours in “C” (Opportunist One-off offence; very little or no planning). Then go to the following page where the “Harm” is categorised by the amount involved. Yours is in Cat. 4 (£5k to £20k). Then the following page provides a table of Culpability and Harm and recommended sentence ranges. For Cat C Culpability and Cat 4 Harm the sentencing range is a Band B Fine (which is one week’s net income) to a High Level Community order. The offence (at least as you describe it) does not reach the custody threshold and certainly does not warrant the matter being heard at the Crown Court. Did you enter your guilty plea at the Magistrates’ Court and the Magistrates decided it was outside their sentencing powers? If so, there must be more to the offence than you are telling us about.
Anyway, you are where you are and if the guidelines are followed you should be sentenced to a Community order of some sort. You will not have to pay all the prosecution costs. A guilty plea in the Magistrates’ Court attracts a contribution towards costs of just £85 and I believe it would be a similar amount if the case goes to the Crown Court for sentencing.
Take a look at the Magistrates’ sentencing guidelines:
https:/
Click on “Magistrates’ Court Sentencing Guidelines” and then go to page 307 of the document. There you will see categories of “Culpability” and I would, from your description, place yours in “C” (Opportunist One-off offence; very little or no planning). Then go to the following page where the “Harm” is categorised by the amount involved. Yours is in Cat. 4 (£5k to £20k). Then the following page provides a table of Culpability and Harm and recommended sentence ranges. For Cat C Culpability and Cat 4 Harm the sentencing range is a Band B Fine (which is one week’s net income) to a High Level Community order. The offence (at least as you describe it) does not reach the custody threshold and certainly does not warrant the matter being heard at the Crown Court. Did you enter your guilty plea at the Magistrates’ Court and the Magistrates decided it was outside their sentencing powers? If so, there must be more to the offence than you are telling us about.
Anyway, you are where you are and if the guidelines are followed you should be sentenced to a Community order of some sort. You will not have to pay all the prosecution costs. A guilty plea in the Magistrates’ Court attracts a contribution towards costs of just £85 and I believe it would be a similar amount if the case goes to the Crown Court for sentencing.
There is nothing of major I am missing.
My barrister went through the sentencing guidelines with me.
I did enter guilty at magistrates which gave me 33% off but they said with my previous the 33% will be added back on.
It is still below 2 years so can be suspended.
I am just so nervous, my barrister will say about how my family rely on me, how I am now in an stable job and how I am much closer to my family because of this.
Just the thought of being away from my son is killing me and this copper who keeps showing up keeps winding me up as I fell like he is dodgy
My barrister went through the sentencing guidelines with me.
I did enter guilty at magistrates which gave me 33% off but they said with my previous the 33% will be added back on.
It is still below 2 years so can be suspended.
I am just so nervous, my barrister will say about how my family rely on me, how I am now in an stable job and how I am much closer to my family because of this.
Just the thought of being away from my son is killing me and this copper who keeps showing up keeps winding me up as I fell like he is dodgy
NJ I am getting a clue from '' I came into card details of a London based football club and did what I did''
I think it was a bit more than she 'just happened to find' the card details !
NJ is it probable that this case is at the Bailey just because the offence happened in London? I thought only the most serous cases were heard there?
I think it was a bit more than she 'just happened to find' the card details !
NJ is it probable that this case is at the Bailey just because the offence happened in London? I thought only the most serous cases were heard there?
“My barrister went through the sentencing guidelines with me.”
So not in Category C for culpability, then.
“I did enter guilty at magistrates which gave me 33% off but they said with my previous the 33% will be added back on.”
It does not work like that. You are entitled to 33% discount for your early guilty plea. Your previous offence may aggravate the matter but not to the extent that you would lose all of that discount, especially as it was four years ago.
The matter being heard at the Old Bailey is strange, Eddie. That court is usually reserved for the most serious criminal cases in London and from elsewhere in England and Wales where a fair trial may be jeopardised by local prejudice. (The Old Bailey draws its jurors from across London and so has a far larger pool of potential jurors than provincial courts). A case such as this would normally be heard at one of the other London Crown Courts (e.g. Southwark, Snaresbrook, Inner London (Elephant & Castle), Croydon). Having said that, The Old Bailey is the designated Crown Court for offences committed within the City of London.
So not in Category C for culpability, then.
“I did enter guilty at magistrates which gave me 33% off but they said with my previous the 33% will be added back on.”
It does not work like that. You are entitled to 33% discount for your early guilty plea. Your previous offence may aggravate the matter but not to the extent that you would lose all of that discount, especially as it was four years ago.
The matter being heard at the Old Bailey is strange, Eddie. That court is usually reserved for the most serious criminal cases in London and from elsewhere in England and Wales where a fair trial may be jeopardised by local prejudice. (The Old Bailey draws its jurors from across London and so has a far larger pool of potential jurors than provincial courts). A case such as this would normally be heard at one of the other London Crown Courts (e.g. Southwark, Snaresbrook, Inner London (Elephant & Castle), Croydon). Having said that, The Old Bailey is the designated Crown Court for offences committed within the City of London.
The more I think about this the stranger it all seems. What do you mean by the arresting officer 'keeps showing up' and 'coming to every hearing etc' plus he 'keeps whispering in the prosecutions ear' . How many hearings have there been I thought it was just the one where you pleaded guilty at magistrates and then the one when it got referred up to crown and a pre sentence report was ordered?
Then you have just admitted that your fraud also caused your company to lose a contract! It will have lost a lot more than that it will have lost it's reputation and probably gone bankrupt. So there are two aspects to this case the fraud it's self and your dishonesty as an employee, which has caused your employer to lose business.
Both I and New Judge think there is still a lot to this that you have not told us!
Then you have just admitted that your fraud also caused your company to lose a contract! It will have lost a lot more than that it will have lost it's reputation and probably gone bankrupt. So there are two aspects to this case the fraud it's self and your dishonesty as an employee, which has caused your employer to lose business.
Both I and New Judge think there is still a lot to this that you have not told us!
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