ChatterBank0 min ago
shop lifting / theft - fixed penalty notice - appealing
hiya,
Has anyone managed to appeal a £80 penalty fine for shop lifting? Also the shop are suing her and she will have to pay costs.
my friend is not sure whether to appeal it or not.
I guess we can see why it would look like she was shop lifting but that wasn't her intention.
She was buying a gift set thing. She had bought one before and there were things missing from it. So this one seemed rather light too so she took some products from another gift set and started putting them inside of the one she wanted. Then she went to pay and left. Then undercover security stopped her and asked her to come back in. She explained she had a receipt and the guy said that she had concealed items in the gift pack and left with out paying for the ones she concealed. We can see how that must of looked bad especially on camera. But really wasn't her intention.
Do you think its worth appealing? Paying is really not a problem when it comes to money, but we are just worried that it will now be on her record. i know it wont be a proper criminal conviction, but it still looks bad especially if someone does a enhanced cbr check. She is 30 and feels so embarrassed about it all. The shop manager was right in saying that she should of asked staff to check if the right amount of products were in the gift set, but she didn't.
So question 1: should we appeal the penalty notice?
Question 2: has anyone succeeded in doing this and how did you go about it?
Question 3: should we appeal the shop suing her?
Question 4: does this show on a enhanced cbr check?
Question 5: will this permanently be on her record or does it get removed after a certain about of years?
all answers will be appreciated!! many thanx !!!
Has anyone managed to appeal a £80 penalty fine for shop lifting? Also the shop are suing her and she will have to pay costs.
my friend is not sure whether to appeal it or not.
I guess we can see why it would look like she was shop lifting but that wasn't her intention.
She was buying a gift set thing. She had bought one before and there were things missing from it. So this one seemed rather light too so she took some products from another gift set and started putting them inside of the one she wanted. Then she went to pay and left. Then undercover security stopped her and asked her to come back in. She explained she had a receipt and the guy said that she had concealed items in the gift pack and left with out paying for the ones she concealed. We can see how that must of looked bad especially on camera. But really wasn't her intention.
Do you think its worth appealing? Paying is really not a problem when it comes to money, but we are just worried that it will now be on her record. i know it wont be a proper criminal conviction, but it still looks bad especially if someone does a enhanced cbr check. She is 30 and feels so embarrassed about it all. The shop manager was right in saying that she should of asked staff to check if the right amount of products were in the gift set, but she didn't.
So question 1: should we appeal the penalty notice?
Question 2: has anyone succeeded in doing this and how did you go about it?
Question 3: should we appeal the shop suing her?
Question 4: does this show on a enhanced cbr check?
Question 5: will this permanently be on her record or does it get removed after a certain about of years?
all answers will be appreciated!! many thanx !!!
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yes she did. after she was made aware that they werent even the same brand.
I dont think there is a way she will win the appeal even if she uses mental health issues to say she has a problem. what do you think?
also will this be on an enhanced cbr check? does it get removed after a certain about of years?
I dont think there is a way she will win the appeal even if she uses mental health issues to say she has a problem. what do you think?
also will this be on an enhanced cbr check? does it get removed after a certain about of years?
She was taking goods from a shop without paying for them....
Commonly known as....'' THEFT ''....
You can appeal against anything you want..
Now she is having second thoughts, and realises how silly she was... when that old devil...'' Criminal Record ''...may be getting tatooed to her CRB records.
With hindsight we can all look back and wish we had done something differently.
When the judge is passing sentence, tell her to ask if she can ''give it back'' because politicians do... and they get away with it all the time..!
Commonly known as....'' THEFT ''....
You can appeal against anything you want..
Now she is having second thoughts, and realises how silly she was... when that old devil...'' Criminal Record ''...may be getting tatooed to her CRB records.
With hindsight we can all look back and wish we had done something differently.
When the judge is passing sentence, tell her to ask if she can ''give it back'' because politicians do... and they get away with it all the time..!
-- answer removed --
yes ur right she could of refused, but she just wanted to be polite and do as she was told and didn't want to cause a scene or make things worse.
Believe me this is not ur typical shop lifter. She is 30 with no criminal record, from a very good back ground. She feels very stupid as she realises how this must look, and that she should of asked the staff to check the product had the right amount of things inside.
what she is worried about is that the police said it will always be on her record. but the 2 police officers were giving different opinions on that.
Believe me this is not ur typical shop lifter. She is 30 with no criminal record, from a very good back ground. She feels very stupid as she realises how this must look, and that she should of asked the staff to check the product had the right amount of things inside.
what she is worried about is that the police said it will always be on her record. but the 2 police officers were giving different opinions on that.
Believe me, this matter will remain on her record, certainly for the immediate future and possibly longer. I see a number of records of “previous” in the course of some of the work that I do and cautions are shown, albeit separately from “proper” convictions.
As far as I am aware there is no right of appeal against a caution. As has been said, in accepting it you admit the facts as recorded by the police. The option if you disagree with those facts is to go to court and either plead not guilty (as so face a trial) or plead guilty on a different basis of fact to that presented by the prosecution.
The time to make that decision was before the caution was accepted. However, from your description of events it is most unlikely that your friend would have been acquitted and a caution is less harmful than a conviction.
Cautions are deemed to be “spent” immediately and, under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, need not be declared unless the applicant is applying for a job or position which is exempt from the Act.
So the answers to your questions are:
1, 2 – There is no route to appeal.
3 – The shop is probably taking action under the Civil Recory Scheme to claim their losses. She may fight this but is unlikely to succeed. If she offers to pay up the action will probably be discontinued.
4 – It will not show up on a standard CRB check (because the caution is “spent”) but will show up on an enhanced check if the police have not deleted it from their records (see below).
5 – The police are allowed t keep it on record forever, though most forces have a policy of deleting cautions after a set period of time and this period varies from force to force.
As far as I am aware there is no right of appeal against a caution. As has been said, in accepting it you admit the facts as recorded by the police. The option if you disagree with those facts is to go to court and either plead not guilty (as so face a trial) or plead guilty on a different basis of fact to that presented by the prosecution.
The time to make that decision was before the caution was accepted. However, from your description of events it is most unlikely that your friend would have been acquitted and a caution is less harmful than a conviction.
Cautions are deemed to be “spent” immediately and, under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, need not be declared unless the applicant is applying for a job or position which is exempt from the Act.
So the answers to your questions are:
1, 2 – There is no route to appeal.
3 – The shop is probably taking action under the Civil Recory Scheme to claim their losses. She may fight this but is unlikely to succeed. If she offers to pay up the action will probably be discontinued.
4 – It will not show up on a standard CRB check (because the caution is “spent”) but will show up on an enhanced check if the police have not deleted it from their records (see below).
5 – The police are allowed t keep it on record forever, though most forces have a policy of deleting cautions after a set period of time and this period varies from force to force.
from a logical point of view an appeal would be pointless - the facts state quite clearly what she did...she cannot defend them...
if i was the person judging this case i woudl think -
she was just trying to get more stuff in the box...
most gift boxes state on them what should be in the box...she could have looked properly instead of just opening it and stuffing more in - so why didnt she?
- if i was doing that i would get the items out and check, in full view and ensure i was not acting secretively - i have actually done it myself and i mde sure i was visible, so if asked i coudl explain
she clearly wasnt trying to replace missing items - as firstly she didnt know if any were missing, and if so which ones they were - and it was even a different brand - if she had been she would have at least taken stuff from an identical product.
most give packs would not have room to fit 4 more products in (or even 6 as you mentioned she tried to stuff in!) I mean how many items were in this gift pack for her to believe SIX may be missing and try to add 6 more??
i would think she saw an opportunity to get some free things and got caught.
sorry but id advise her to just pay up
if i was the person judging this case i woudl think -
she was just trying to get more stuff in the box...
most gift boxes state on them what should be in the box...she could have looked properly instead of just opening it and stuffing more in - so why didnt she?
- if i was doing that i would get the items out and check, in full view and ensure i was not acting secretively - i have actually done it myself and i mde sure i was visible, so if asked i coudl explain
she clearly wasnt trying to replace missing items - as firstly she didnt know if any were missing, and if so which ones they were - and it was even a different brand - if she had been she would have at least taken stuff from an identical product.
most give packs would not have room to fit 4 more products in (or even 6 as you mentioned she tried to stuff in!) I mean how many items were in this gift pack for her to believe SIX may be missing and try to add 6 more??
i would think she saw an opportunity to get some free things and got caught.
sorry but id advise her to just pay up
Hi
There have been some very inaccurate statements on some earlier posts.
What she was issued with is a penalty notice for disorder. Payment of the fine involves NO ADMISSION OF GUILT, contrary to what some people have said. All you have to do is read the back of it. It clearly says that payment on the penalty notice will not involve an admission of guilt.
Payment of the penalty notices involves neither a finding of guilt and does not include guilt being admitted.
I you pay the penalty then that is that. If you wish to challenge the penalty notice then you can too. You cannot pay the penalty notice AND challenge it however. You must either pay it, or challenge it. Remeber payment does not admit guilt.
If you challenge it then it is risky because you may be convicted in court, there-by gaining a criminal record. Since there is very good evidence for the prosecution, DO NOT challenge it as the likelihood is that the person will be convicted of theft. (whether or not the person meant to do it; it is what the evidence shows and suggests which is important.
You can't just go to court and say you didn't mean to do it because it is not what the evidence shows. It is highly likely you will be convicted if you challenge this.
In terms of recording and disclosure.
This Penalty notice will be recorded on the Police National Computer. Don't jump to conclusions, this does not mean you have a criminal record. A PNC record is different to a criminal record.
A penalty notice for disorder (PND), will NOT be included on a Basic or standard diclosure from Disclosure Scotland or the Criminal Records Bueau respectively.
There have been some very inaccurate statements on some earlier posts.
What she was issued with is a penalty notice for disorder. Payment of the fine involves NO ADMISSION OF GUILT, contrary to what some people have said. All you have to do is read the back of it. It clearly says that payment on the penalty notice will not involve an admission of guilt.
Payment of the penalty notices involves neither a finding of guilt and does not include guilt being admitted.
I you pay the penalty then that is that. If you wish to challenge the penalty notice then you can too. You cannot pay the penalty notice AND challenge it however. You must either pay it, or challenge it. Remeber payment does not admit guilt.
If you challenge it then it is risky because you may be convicted in court, there-by gaining a criminal record. Since there is very good evidence for the prosecution, DO NOT challenge it as the likelihood is that the person will be convicted of theft. (whether or not the person meant to do it; it is what the evidence shows and suggests which is important.
You can't just go to court and say you didn't mean to do it because it is not what the evidence shows. It is highly likely you will be convicted if you challenge this.
In terms of recording and disclosure.
This Penalty notice will be recorded on the Police National Computer. Don't jump to conclusions, this does not mean you have a criminal record. A PNC record is different to a criminal record.
A penalty notice for disorder (PND), will NOT be included on a Basic or standard diclosure from Disclosure Scotland or the Criminal Records Bueau respectively.
The only time when the PND MAY show (not definately) is on an enhanced criminal record disclosure. These disclosures are only avaliable for people who wish to work woth young people and vulnerable adults, police, judicial positions and gaming and lottery licenses. (There may be one or two more positions but that is most of them).
The PND will be disclosed (on an enhanced criminal records disclosure) if the Chief Officer of Police of the relevent police force decides that the PND is relevent to the enquiry, or post applied for, by the applicant of the Crimina Records Check. Just because a PND has been issued does not make it relevent.
Do not challenge the PND
Only disclosed on enhanced criminal records checks if deemed relevent b the Police Chief.
Details on how to challenge can be found on the reverse side of the slip you were issued with.
This will be permanently on her record, but this does not mean that the implications of what you have been given are worse. Think about it, if it was not kept on your record permanently, then the people who do do these things deliberately will be able to keep on doing it as their records have been deleted.
The likelihood the the PND will be disclosed by be reduced as time passes as it be considered less and less relevent by the Police Chief (common sense), although in theory could be disclosed at any time.
What you have is NOT too serious. You have not been given a conviction or caution or reprimand or warning.
The record you have is non-conviction information and is treated as intelligence.
If you apply for a sensitive job requiring an enhanced disclosure, then you will have to explain the circumstances of the PND if and when it comes up in the disclosure.
People have far worse records.
The PND will be disclosed (on an enhanced criminal records disclosure) if the Chief Officer of Police of the relevent police force decides that the PND is relevent to the enquiry, or post applied for, by the applicant of the Crimina Records Check. Just because a PND has been issued does not make it relevent.
Do not challenge the PND
Only disclosed on enhanced criminal records checks if deemed relevent b the Police Chief.
Details on how to challenge can be found on the reverse side of the slip you were issued with.
This will be permanently on her record, but this does not mean that the implications of what you have been given are worse. Think about it, if it was not kept on your record permanently, then the people who do do these things deliberately will be able to keep on doing it as their records have been deleted.
The likelihood the the PND will be disclosed by be reduced as time passes as it be considered less and less relevent by the Police Chief (common sense), although in theory could be disclosed at any time.
What you have is NOT too serious. You have not been given a conviction or caution or reprimand or warning.
The record you have is non-conviction information and is treated as intelligence.
If you apply for a sensitive job requiring an enhanced disclosure, then you will have to explain the circumstances of the PND if and when it comes up in the disclosure.
People have far worse records.
And even if you were to receive a caution, it never gets deleted..
It get's stepped down, under the ACPO retention guidlines for nominal police records.
This is different to the Rehabilitation of offenders act.
Getting something stepped down means that it is only available for inspection by the Police. However, may still be disclosed to the CRB. The timelines for stepping crimes down is long.
It get's stepped down, under the ACPO retention guidlines for nominal police records.
This is different to the Rehabilitation of offenders act.
Getting something stepped down means that it is only available for inspection by the Police. However, may still be disclosed to the CRB. The timelines for stepping crimes down is long.
Yes, sumo, quite correct.
I was watching the snooker whilst posting my reply and assumed we were talking about a caution, not a PND. I didn’t read the question properly.
However, I believe that the situation regarding whether this will show up on a CRB check is the same. It will not show up on a normal CRB (because, like a caution it becomes spent immediately) but it will show up on an enhanced check unless it has been deleted by the police. Similarly a PND, like a caution, must be disclosed when applying for any position not protected by the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act.
They do appear on prosecutors’ printouts when a person’s previous history is raised in court (under “non-convictions”) but generally are not taken into consideration by sentencing magistrates or judges unless there are exceptional reasons for them to do so.
None of this prevents the store from taking action under the Civil Recovery Scheme.
I was watching the snooker whilst posting my reply and assumed we were talking about a caution, not a PND. I didn’t read the question properly.
However, I believe that the situation regarding whether this will show up on a CRB check is the same. It will not show up on a normal CRB (because, like a caution it becomes spent immediately) but it will show up on an enhanced check unless it has been deleted by the police. Similarly a PND, like a caution, must be disclosed when applying for any position not protected by the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act.
They do appear on prosecutors’ printouts when a person’s previous history is raised in court (under “non-convictions”) but generally are not taken into consideration by sentencing magistrates or judges unless there are exceptional reasons for them to do so.
None of this prevents the store from taking action under the Civil Recovery Scheme.
No worries New Judge
Bit more info on disclosure-
Standard criminal record disclosures contain information about offences that a person has been found guilty of, or has admitted to doing them.
For adults- Convictions and cautions.
For people below 18- Reprimands and warnings.
These are technicalities and some police may issue a formal warning but its the same as a caution for adults.
Convictions, cautions, warnings and reprimands arise from either a finding or an admission of guilt.
A PND in niether. Therefore does not appear on a standard disclosure.
In terms of disclosing nformation yourself before a CRB check comes back, then you should disclose the PND if you are requiring an enhanced CRB check as it may appear. But not for a standard disclosure, which also concerns jobs also exempt from the rehabilitation of offenders act (you are not an ex-offender) (e.g financial services) but which do not involve contact with young people or vulnerable adults, thereby requiring an enhanced CRM check.
As standard disclosures only contain information about convictions, cautions, warnings and reprimands, you do not have to disclose the PND as a PND does not constitute ANY of the above. If asked have you ever received a conviction, caution, warning or reprimand, you can answer 'no.'
Bit more info on disclosure-
Standard criminal record disclosures contain information about offences that a person has been found guilty of, or has admitted to doing them.
For adults- Convictions and cautions.
For people below 18- Reprimands and warnings.
These are technicalities and some police may issue a formal warning but its the same as a caution for adults.
Convictions, cautions, warnings and reprimands arise from either a finding or an admission of guilt.
A PND in niether. Therefore does not appear on a standard disclosure.
In terms of disclosing nformation yourself before a CRB check comes back, then you should disclose the PND if you are requiring an enhanced CRB check as it may appear. But not for a standard disclosure, which also concerns jobs also exempt from the rehabilitation of offenders act (you are not an ex-offender) (e.g financial services) but which do not involve contact with young people or vulnerable adults, thereby requiring an enhanced CRM check.
As standard disclosures only contain information about convictions, cautions, warnings and reprimands, you do not have to disclose the PND as a PND does not constitute ANY of the above. If asked have you ever received a conviction, caution, warning or reprimand, you can answer 'no.'
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