sixes and sevens

[chris skeat]

dear answerbank, i have always wanted to know where the phrase 'at sixes and sevens' comes from? does it have anything to do with golf?
yours sincerely
chris skeat

[ravenhair]

There are various theories about this one; no one can decide which is the definitive answer. One theory is that it relates to gambling, from the expression "set upon six and seven", meaning carelessly betting one's entire fortune on one throw of the dice. Another theory states that however, states that it comes from the trade of needlemaking; when the needles are jumbled up, they are said to be sixes and sevens because those numbers are the sizes most generally used, and in their manufacture they have to be frequently distinguished from each other. There are other theories, I think, but those are the two most common ones. By the way, Chris, you don't have to give out your e-mail address; we won't be replying to you personally.

[sft42]

aaahhh ravenhair, I had a debate with someone on this b4....My favourite theory and the one accepted widely is that two of the london guilds, The Merchant Tailors and The Skinners couldn't decide who should be sixth and seventh....so after intervention by the lord mayor they took it in turns whereafter this caused confusion at lots of functions and official gatherings as to who was to go first so this was called to be at sixes and sevens.....source - Phrases & Sayings by Bloomsbury reference

[flirty41]

See also this answer from Quizmonster back in August: http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-six1htm

[Quizmonster]

Thank you, Flirty, for digging out that old response of mine. Sadly, however, the link you gave doesn't work. Click http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-six1.htm Skeat for the website referred to. (I'm assuming the link will work this time, of course!) Incidentally, the explanation offered there is excatly the same as the explanation offered by The Oxford English Dictionary - the 'bible' of the etymology of words/phrases - so you can be pretty sure it's the right one.

[hovnav]

try a lovely book  ' P O S H .  by Michael Quinion ,  he also mentions about the City of London and the trade guilds.

Also explains the title of the book ' P O S H ' and many others.

As for naval and sea related sayings, ( of which there are hundreda ) Try the  ' Salty Dog: The Nautical Origins of Everyday Expressions '  by Bill Beavis and Richard McCloskey

[SimonMorton]

I think it comes from American Football - to finish 6th or 7th in a league with only 5 teams was reagarded as a poor show by anyone standards and indicated a degree of disarray. Example, Chicago Stud Muffins in 1952