Vowel divide

[SteveD]

If two lines were drawn across the UK where, north of the top one, people say bath, path, glass (short "a") and south of the bottom one, they say "bahth", "pahth", "glahss" (long "a"), where would they be?

[JudgeJ]

How would people living between the two lines say the words you mention?

In any case it's academic because I think the one and only dividing line passes through Watford.

[~owzat~]

I agree, JudgeJ

Hence the saying "North of Watford"

(use it all the time) well, not all the time!

[jno]

I've heard that it was originally north of Watford Gap, which makes a lot more sense unless you're making some sort of London joke. Sorry, not sure if that actually answers your quesstion, SteveD. It may be - I don't know - that the line folows the old Danelaw, where the Vikings were allowed to live in one part of the country and King Alfred and his Anglo-Saxons lived in the other; there are still differences in placenames on the two sides.

[SteveD]

I suggested TWO lines because I assumed that there would be a swathe of country where some people say "bath" and some say "bahth".

The line does not pass just north of Watford. I hail originally from Luton and am certainly "long a".

Watford Gap could be a candidate for one point on the line but I doubt that the line is straight.

[JudgeJ]

Luton, as everybody knows, is in the Midlands.

[DeNiro]

Watford:

A town on the NW edge of the London conurbation, reputedly viewed by Londoners as the northern limit of British civilization and culture.

Freq: in north of Watford

Perhaps infl. by Watford Gap in Northamptonshire

'Provincial visitors' ...broadly covered anyone normally domiciled north of Watford.

[~owzat~]

Hi again, SteveD
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:qALMQUB3m t0J:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watford+north+of+wat ford&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=2
Doesn't answer your original Q, but hey, this is what it's all about.

I hope this will cover the north/south divide issue, though
Scroll down to relevant text.

regards
iii

[BigMac]

A line drawn between the Mersey and the Humber, above which without exception the short 'a' is heard.

A line drawn between the Bristoll Channel and the Wash, below which broadly the long 'a' is heard.

This leaves a gap for the northern Surrey (Cheshire), where the nouveaux riches use the long 'a', and places like Notinghamshire and Derbyshire, which still use the short 'a'.

Just to stir things further, remember that on Palm Sunday Jesus rode into town on his donkey, not his bottom.

[ugly_bob]

I've always known it as north of the watford gap, although a friend at Uni used to claim that 'the north' was anywhere north of his back yard - which was in Surrey!

[annavc]

In a similar vein ugly_bob I was at university in Canterbury with someone who considered that to be "way up north" (her words not mine). She did come from Portsmouth but that's no excuse! She also once asked me seriously if I had to have my passport with me when I went home to Yorkshire or Scotland!!

[THECORBYLOON]

BigMac you say without exception but an Aberdeen accent has an "a" sound very close to a long a but where the English would say "Baath" in the same tone, Aberdonians say it wi a rise at the end.

[gary baldy]

The definitive division line is that anywhere north of the river Trent is oop north.
Anywhere south of Watford Gap services on the M1 (and not blooming Watford the town owzat you muppet!) is down darn sarf.
The bit in between is the Midlands me duck.
People generally start talking properly once you pass Watford gap (heading north obviously).
Its all daft anyway - believe it or not we do have posh people up north you know and they do talk proper posh like.
So to answer your question Steve there are actually 3 lines and people start dropping their H's above the bottom line around the northern parts of Northamptonshire, Warwickshire and Worcestershire.

[ugly_bob]

sorry? no h's darn sarf. or t's.
hospital becomes 'ospi'al in cockney

[dr john]

These lines are called isoglosses, and this particular one is known as the 'trap-bath split'. You can look it up on Wikipedia to see where the line goes.

[~owzat~]

Thank you gary baldy,

Shame some of you peeps on here don't read what others actually post.

I come from London, and the saying 'north of Watford' is and has been used by many, many people. The fact that it probably comes from Watford Gap originally, is not the saying that most Londoners use. After all, we know that over time, sayings and phrases get abbreviated and corrupted. Reading the whole part of the link I posted, gives the whole perspective on the issue. There still is contention as to the origin, hence DeNiro's ref from the OED (I looked this up also). So, although I admit to sometimes being a "muppet", I don't care for your reference in this case, as if what I have said is in any way wrong or that I am deluded.

[stephyker]

Anything north of the watford gap services is a regular saying of mine to ignorant southerners. i have just spent two weeks on holiday in crete, and felt the need to prove to southerners that i am not unemployed or work in a factory! by the way, i live in lancashire.