Listener 4234 9 To 5 By Zag

[Ruthrobin]

Sheer joy from start to finish. What a splendid original idea. We had to be really organised to keep track of those different types of clue but have loved this solve. Thank you Zag!

[jim360]

I think without the two-letter grid entries the unchecking would be far too high for most of the clues. So they had to be included and then indicated somehow, and cluing them normally would lead to six too many clues.

[the_heisman]

I had a 5 hour flight today armed with my crossword and A Suitable Boy. I have never made such progress with the mighty tome. I did not really like this one -it looked very promising but as with the chemistry one you didn't actually need the instructions to complete it and I got what was going on before using any of the letters that I had painstakingly written in the margin.

[pushmi-pullyu]

I would love to join in the general consensus that this was really too easy etc etc etc but find myself humiliatingly stuck on 11 across. Maddening when all the rest fell into place so quickly.

[Ruthrobin]

Yes, jim360's explanation is definitely the reason for the clue for 2-letter ones. Strict setting rules ban 4-letter clues with two 'unches'. We get another chance to watch jim360 attempt to save the day for his King's College Cambridge team in University Challenge this coming Monday. Good luck jim360!

[pushmi-pullyu]

And once again, no sooner do I post than I get the answer.

[IainGrace]

Still not clear re the point of the two letter answers. Locations were not "deduced": they appeared by dint of our solving the other clues. Their relationship to the component parts of the separate clue can be deduced, but so what? And the surface reading of the separate clue itself is poor. Or are we missing something?

[jim360]

Well I've explained why they had to be included in this grid earlier. That said I don't think that they add much to this puzzle - except perhaps allowing the rest of the grid to work? We may need to wait for a setter's blog to answer that question.

[trux]

Took this with me as diversion for train trip from Casa to Fez, but alas all done just after Rabat, with no aids at all, so must be easier than usual. One could quibble about the 2 letter answers, but overall it was fun and a nice working of the theme and some quite clever clueing. Many thx to Zag.

[IainGrace]

Agree, jim360. Overall a bit clumsy, though, and insufficiently challenging.

[AndrewG-S]

All the thematic down entries became obvious without referring to a single of the various extra etc letters which was poor. And the use of a sentence to justify 2 letter entries to make the unching requirements work was dreadful. A decent idea but in my opinion not well executed. At least there was not hours of head scratching over it. Sorry not a favourite for me.

[tristram37]

I completely forgot about the two-letter answers until I had completed the grid when all I had to do, just for my own satisfaction, was see which answer fitted a relevant word in the definition sentence. I dimly remember coming across a very old Listener puzzle (unfortunately I have been unable to trace it) in which the preamble stated baldly "2-letter answers are not clued." I wonder if Zag had intended that but it was vetoed by the vetters.

[jim360]

It is true that in the end you don't really need to keep too much track of the extra letters. All in all I don't think I can call this one sheer joy. A bit of a grind, wry smile once the theme became clear, but another one ticked off for the year mainly.

[Ruthrobin]

What a pack of old whinges! It is great, now and then, to have a puzzle that is clued so well that all the answers just fall into place. There was an endgame and, if you felt that solving was too easy for you, you could make the extra intellectual effort of working out where all the different types of clues were. Yes, I am on my high horse but I really strongly maintain that a complete range of puzzle difficulty is necessary in order to keep the old hands solving and attract new solvers. (That should stir up a few crusty responses from the Listener snobs in our midst - now moan if you dare!)

[tristram37]

I totally agree with RuthRobin. I thought the puzzle was great fun, and that various levels of difficulty are desirable to keep as many people as possible interested. Apart from anything else I was glad to have a change from the apparently endless string of carte blanches.

[Garaman]

Yes, and if we are having a moan here is one. This shouldn't be a speed contest where solvers seek help anywhere to be first to post (apologies if there is another Jim360) nor about ticking puzzles of a list. This should be about enjoying a puzzle which the setter has probably spent a fair amount of time preparing. I am all for a bit of help when stuck but give it a fair crack first.

[jim360]

Shot at me about the EV, garaman? Whoever said I was racing to be first to post? Genuinely got stuck, genuinely asked for help, genuinely got it by email. And had genuinely finished the rest of the puzzle unaided after a 4-hour grind. Bit of a cheap and unfair shot, I think.

I feel sorry really for Zag, that his creation should get slated so. Even so I'm entitled to not like this one. There was a lot going on and it was for a while nice. But it is a letdown, surely, when all of those letters I had carefully piled up and assembled went basically unused?

[Garaman]

Not a cheap shot at all Jim360. You claim on here that it is another ticked off the list like that is the most important thing, and sadly it clearly is when what should be the most important thing is trying to crack it and enjoying the process even if it takes a few sittings.

You asked for help on the EV with two clues one of which was 20a and if you had the others interlinking entries would render it only one possibility. So clearly you couldn’t have had all the other entries. I don’t know you but by all accounts you are a very bright guy and I have very little doubt that you could have solved it on your own. If you are asking for help and then first to post it should be telling you something – it wasn’t an easy puzzle and you should have persevered a bit more.

[jim360]

I have a number of basic character flaws. Missing the point often is one of them. "Ticked of the list" was a bit of a throwaway comment. I look forward to the challenge of Listeners and also to some of the wonderful themes they can throw up. Don't really think this was among my favourites, is all.

At the time I asked for help I was missing five answers, I think, and the perimeter. Can't remember how long I was stuck on them but it was certainly a while with no ideas. In the end I found that puzzle great fun to solve with a theme I enjoyed very much. This one, not so much. At times then it can feel like ticking them off the list, but usually doesn't.

Anyway, moving on.

[Philoctetes]

I think it is important to remember that not everyone enjoys the same puzzles in the same way. Personally, I could do without as many science-based puzzles (and associated comments along the lines of "Fantastic theme that I have loved since school"), but they simply mean I have more investigation to do before I can guess at what the rubric means. Similarly, the "Fantastic end game so please don't give the game away so everyone shut up" comments are (should be) unnecessary, and equally (at times) irritating (So he managed to hide a key word in the grid - whoop de do). And, as for the "Friday Club" or "All Correct" - fine if that is how you do things, but, as I have said before, I prefer to do things in small chunks, and am the worst proof reader in historu. BUT, the only point of coming to this little community is to sample the endless variety of the people in it, and their endless variety of response to the common problem we are all set weekly. Let's face it, there aint no other reason.

[SwissWavey]

Well, I just started mine this afternoon and finished it in about 2 or 3 hours. So it probably is a bit easy compared to some others - in fact the last 3 have all been accused of being too easy.
The last 3, however, have been the first I have ever completed (I can often only fill about a quarter of the grid). So, as Ruthrobin said, puzzles like these will help attract new players. Surely that can't be a bad thing...