Listener No 4277 Rise And Fall By Colleague

[upsetter]

good progress & PDM so far - just the SGF to complete

[starwalker]

Lots of fun and brought back many memories. Packed with thematic material (and I've probably missed some). Thanks Colleague.

[Ruthrobin]

Sorry, I have just found this and realized that you had already posted when I joined in. This was absolutely delightful, many thanks Colleague.

[AHearer]

..and I made the same mistake...

Agreed, this was fun. I'm almost disappointed, though, that I got the theme a bit too early, so the rest of the eight-letter removals were quite easy to spot. I suppose that with so many thematic items it was hard to set up a symmetrical grid, but I always prefer a bit of symmetry.

[Contrarian]

I suspect that the theme will be rather obvious to most solvers. I got it after 3 clues, then the rest fell into place very easily.

[trux]

Yes, the theme rather leaps out at you, and yes, gridfill was not too taxing but there was a great deal to admire in the construction (especially the very clever clashes which all work either way) and the sheer quantity of thematic material fitted into the grid. Many thanks to Colleague for a fine puzzle which kept me smiling all the way through.

[emcee]

Yes, a theme well known to the Listener solver. Still, a decent puzzle crammed with thematic material.

Thanks, Colleague, for an enjoyable solve.

[sunny-dave]

Easy enough theme, but nicely done with a whole lot of thematic material shoe-horned in.

Some tough clues I thought (28D took some teasing out).

Thanks Colleague.

[jockie]

Yes, a nice puzzle ... but I found another thematic light could be formed, but even on checking carefully there is no clash to justify it (although there easily could have been). Can't say more without giving it away, but did anyone else find the same thing?

[IainGrace]

Agree with comments. Very enjoyable, but solution of an easy early down clue gave us an early across answer which exposed a jumble. Solution of another clue gave us the theme, albeit that it led us to think initially of a more obvious, less interesting, theme.

[Ruthrobin]

Yes, Jockie, I had the same experience and wasted a few minutes convinced that that other thematic word had to be in the likely place. However, the words it would have used persuaded me that its omission was a good thing.

[grace_slick]

Like Contrarian I got the theme after just 3 clues, so found it just about ok but nothing special. Some nice clues but odd awful ones. Also, as most of the thematic material was in the clues, not the grid (or did I miss something) I wonder if the grid could have been made symmetrical, because this one looked dreadful.

[aldanna]

I particularly enjoyed this crossword. Although the theme, and the jumbles etc. were fairly easy to spot, given the eight-letter information, I did find several clues quite tricky. In fact, there are 2 or 3 that I still cannot fathom the wordplay for. So, on the grounds that if it is not 100% clear it may well be wrong, I am resting it before I fill in the neat copy for JEG.

[jim360]

Just a couple of clues short in the top-right, but all the PDMs over and done with that I'm aware of. Went through at a fair pace, even knowing the theme early on (though I still haven't read it) not speeding things up too much. Some tough clues, I thought.

From the looks of things I'm inclined to think that Colleague was hoping to use a symmetrical grid initially but felt that he had to sacrifice that (and some generous unching in the left of the grid) in favour of cramming in as much thematic material as possible. One wonders if he also did try to fit in that one extra name jockie alludes to. Still a good puzzle, though, so thanks Colleague.

[IainGrace]

Yes, wordplay in one or two was tricky, partly due to clashes. 33 down was the last one that we eventually cracked.

[Scorpius]

A very enjoyable puzzle. Like others, I guessed the theme very early on as soon as I sorted out the first jumble, which made filling the grid very easy, though solving some of the clues resulting in clashes was less so; there were some pretty obscure names in there. The eight-letter characters were neatly incorporated in the puzzle's construction, and the completeness of the theme was something to be admired.
I agree with grace_slick that the grid does look pretty awful. I don't mind the assymetry, but three sets of three continuous bars and a central column that has so little connection with the rest of the grid all make for an unattractive appearance.

[Scorpius]

Before anyone accuses me of being illiterate, I meant asymetry.

[jim360]

Or perhaps even "asymmetry"?

[Scorpius]

I'm illiterate after all. Never mind. I'm comforted by the thought that a highly qualified English don had trouble with 'accommodation'.

[Staurologist]

Delightful. Those who think that this was (for example) "nothing special" have missed the point of puzzles like this: they don't merely provide solving fodder, but also send you back to [re]read the original source, which I did. I recommend it to those who did not. The extra thematic light that Jockie found is, as far as I can tell, the only missing member of the complete set. I too suspect that Colleague tried to get it in but found the task too hard. Or maybe it was included as a possible red herring. I am a great fan of symmetry, but I thought that the asymmetry was justified here by the huge amount of thematic material in the grid.

[Cagey]

I am enjoying meandering my way through this puzzle during a quiet monday at work. Top half done and lots of inroads into bottom half. Theme is also a favorite in its medium.

I can understand the need for strictness and rules on styles of clues and for (overall) levels of crosschecking between clues (with leeway given for both depending on difficulty of clue), but I do think that quibbles over symmetry vs asymmetry is pointless as rules/guides/preferences/loves for such a feature are a little arbitrary (likewise shape).