Listener Crossword No 4301 It's Over Here! By Jago

[trux]

Have just taken up my £1 special offer for first month of my Times subscription, and do hope I shall get better value for money in the coming weeks. I regret to say that this is just not up to Listener standard. Apologies to Jago for being so blunt, but seriously ...

[logophile]

Sadly not - I'm sure everyone here wishes Cav all the very best for a speedy recovery - we look forward to seeing him back on his 10 again soon.

[tilbee]

Hmm..Started this one off at Maidenhead on the way into London yesterday, expecting an engaging distraction from the journey, but all completed just after Slough. Should not criticise the setter I feel, since an amusing enough diversion within the appropriate publication, but agree that even within the most generous interpretation of acceptable difficulty levels , this surely lies outside the range for the Listener.

[u10]

There have been many comments about the short solving time for this crossword but what about the setting time? My guess is that this one could be rattled off in a few hours whereas Tetris and the one about Pi surely would have taken many days to set. Incidentally I have just solved the EV Crossword by Piccadilly. This is another easy crossword with straightforward clues (Magpie A rating), but it was far more satisfying to solve than the current Listener.

[sunny-dave]

Hmmm - 12 minutes, without recourse to any printed or electronic references or aids.

To quote Mr McEnroe - "You cannot be serious ..."

[scorpiojo]

Agreed

[Oyler]

Well this was my first Listener word puzzle solved since 1996 and I'm fair chuffed! The puzzle reminded me of Foxglove's In Out In Out from 1993.
As regards the difficulty level - you are going to get a range and if you don't like it then don't do it but to call the puzzle 'pathetic' is in my view unacceptable. If these people could do better then let them set one themselves. Oh no, of course, they wouldn't as they are too busy slagging off puzzles. Perhaps they should put up or shut up.

[the_heisman]

I agree that the puzzle was too easy but I do agree with Oyler that some of the comments are too aggressive and I hope we can get back to the usual civilised debate.

[perseverer]

Jago has been setting Listeners for a long time, (Rentokil - the Origami Wren among many others) and i'm sure is well aware of the sort of levels of difficulty required so I can only imagine that for some reason he and the editors decided on this occasion this is the level of difficulty they wanted. Personally I was disappointed that it was not more of a challenge, but would try to say so politely, if not quite follow Thumper's Mum's advice.
Incidentally if anyone reading this thread had not figured out the theme for themselves, they certainly would know what it is now.

[trux]

Thanks, Cruciverbalist, for the link to the Azed 'Overlaps' special: some pretty approachable clues make for an entertaining gridfill. Dreaming up a suitable prize-winning clue may be more of a challenge, however...

[Quizmonkey]

"If these people could do better then let them set one themselves."

I do. Regularly.

[Oyler]

If you do Quizmonkey then I hope you're thick skinned enough to take a barrage of abuse when your offerings appear!! What setter's pseudonym do you use as I've never heard of Quizmonkey? For all you know Jago may have been asked by the editors to produce an easy puzzle, no denouement on the theme and he delivered.

[Philoctetes]

Oyler, as the original harsh critic, may I disagree with you? We can all appreciate the effort of setting a puzzle, and not all of us do, but that is irrelevant. We are, by and large, paying customers of the service that provides the Listener Crossword, expecting a good, strong mental tussle. In this instance, as we all seem to agree, that was not the case. Nor was it the case that there was a slight drop in standard - the fall was enormous. If we are not allowed to express our feelings at this lapse, then this discussion can only become a series of "Wow, that was nice!" comments (as has quite frequently been the case). These help - and interest - no one.
This is not a personal attack on Jago, unless, of course, he deliberately decided to short-change his customers, or couldn't be bothered with anything more taxing. I have admired his setting in the past, and we all know he is capable of better. The Editors must bear much responsibility, as I presume they will have seen the simplicity of the puzzle and allowed it through. They have a pile of puzzles awaiting publication, we hear, so substituting another, while sacrificing topicality, would have avoided criticism. I do not know who else is involved in the process of bringing us the Listener Crossword, but they must all share responsibility. I stand by my original opinion of the overall effort.
I note, as an aside, that the standards set here about not giving away too much in the way of hints have also been greatly relaxed. Comment in itself on the standard of this puzzle.

[Quizmonkey]

Hear, hear, Philoctetes. There was no personal attack - just a statement of fact that this was NOT a Listener crossword and should never have been accepted as such.

[AndrewG-S]

Much like the theme, which i was lucky enough to attend, blink and you miss it. But it was fun while it lasted

[crosswhit99]

Well I enjoyed it (the 35 and the puzzle) and if it was the only offering the editors received to commemorate this fantastic spectacle, then sobeit. I just wish that one or two of the clues had involved moving the second part of the wordplay to the front to generate the answer, as befitting the theme.

[Oyler]

Oh well that means that by your criterion my puzzle Pentomino Factory L4023 wasn't a Listener puzzle then as it only took some solvers 10 minutes to solve.

[jim360]

I suppose puzzle compilers always have to expect the possibility of criticism. I do feel sorry for Jago, since while he wrote the puzzle and submitted it the responsibility of what gets accepted or not is that of the editors. One wonders if perhaps he "got away with it", being an experienced setter -- or perhaps even this is something in the same direction as the "more like this" plea from Tiburon/ Kea's "Popularity Contest"? More easy, accessible ones? We had a pretty decent run of tough, challenging puzzles in the 4290's. Perhaps we can expect more in a similar vein, that the hardened veterans will be able to polish off over a single cuppa?

Well, if it helps to attract newcomers, it might be worth the sacrifice of one or two challenges in a year. Although perhaps puzzles like this aren't really good preparation for regular Listeners...

But! I remember someone saying the same thing about me, when I was struggling over a relatively easy crossword: I dug up the relevant discussion if people are interested:

http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Quizzes-and-Puzzles/Crosswords/Question1055550-2.html

I suppose the point would be that even the easy puzzles can be useful encouragement: once you're solved one, it becomes that much more of a bug to attempt others and try harder to do them. Perhaps krumb and others have now been bitten by the Listener bug, as I was then? If so, this could still be a successful Listener, in a way.

I enjoyed this one, as it happens, even if it was rather short. Perhaps most of that was because I was heading off to 28 on the train to see the theme, but I enjoyed it all the same.

[Ruthrobin]

Well, I have been snarled at recently on this thread (by emcee?) for never saying anything negative - always enjoying and being encouraging - so I will add one more positive note. Threads have been rather short of late - we used to go beyond a hundred postings on really contentious subjects. Looking back at the thread you gave a link to, jim360 - that was of typical length with some names that have disappeared since then. So Jago scores (or the editors if the choice was theirs) by prompting a thread that is steadily growing.