Listener 4309: Shades Of Green By Gos

[AHearer]

Thanks to Gos for featuring one of my favourites. I did think, though, that many of the clues were Times Cryptic (or even the easy cryptic) standard rather than Listener. It must have been hard to get this to work, so I suppose we can forgive two OED-only lights.

[jim360]

Well since I think that the more famous work is boring and vastly overhyped...

[contendo]

I agree this was a rather easy romp. Anniversary? Not a very significant one surely, unless I'm missing something. Also why the black square. Is it just there to allow symmetry in a 13x13 grid?

[Contrarian]

Jim,

Overhyped, possibly. Boring?!? Surely not.

Perhaps you just don't like older examples of the medium.

[Scorpius]

Midazolam writes ...but I cannot forgive the 3 unches in a 6 letter entry, 4 unches in 8 letter entries, especially when there are already 2 in 5's and 3 in 7's. I am not a strict Ximenean but there surely should be a limit.

I totally agree (and I could 2 unches in a 4-letter word to his list). It's not that the unching here is unfair, since the clues were very easy, especially the downs, half of which I solved as I read them, but it's the complete lack of conformity to editorial guidelines for the Listener. In any case, why construct a grid that forces you to write easy clues? Apart from the excessive unches there's the inelegance of the grid with the continuous line of ten bars spanning each side of the central black square. These virtually divide the grid into two halves for no thematic reason.

Obviously what has produced this result is the desire for real words in the grid after changes (something I admire) and the preservation of symmetry. But since the perimeter of the grid lacks symmetry I cannot see why the setter didn't abandon symmetry altogether in the interests of a far more satisfactory grid.

[jim360]

Not at all... some of my favourites are from the very earliest set of examples of the medium. But (7,4) is absolutely not one of them; and I don't particularly enjoy other examples in the same style as the theme in question.

[Cagey]

I liked (7,4), but mostly because years of references in other things made sense (especially in (3,8)). My excuse not to indulge is too many things in other mediums eg (10) to enjoy.

[Cagey]

Actually i wonder if one drew a dividing line based on age and people at the forum about people who have undertaken and enjoyed thematic indulging and those who haven't how good a linear classifier it would be. I am 38

[perseverer]

This thread must make fascinating reading if you don't know what the theme is. Actually the theme has fascinated me for years, mainly because of the contrast between the theme and its spin-off.
That should add to the confusion!

[fyellin]

Agree with all that it was easy.

The blank square in the middle was brilliant. It immediately reminded me of a crucial element of the theme.

[Contrarian]

Actually, Jim, I am sympathetic to your comments about (7,4). Being a (relatively) early example of the medium, though, it has to be seen in context. Many of the techniques used by (5,5) were highly innovative, but, to today's viewer probably look a bit hackneyed.

[Contrarian]

**correction " . .used by (5,6)

[Whenland]

No problem with the unches here. We were slightly puzzled by the black square but, having googled the theme, agree that it was a nice thematic touch.

[IainGrace]

Agree this was straightforward. Solvers might have been tripped up by an unchecked letter in one of the names (unusual spelling), had one not required to change the names.

[trux]

Personally I thought (3,11,9) was, well, (11)!

[UglyUncle]

Easy enough, with the shades of green (three of them, I suppose) providing a rather forced theme. Contendo, the anniversary - in the UK at least - occurs today, 31 August.

I'm assuming that the omission of the right-hand edge of the grid (in the hard-copy newspaper version) is a type-setting bludner and not somehow connected to the theme. The last time it happened, imaginary origami was required.

Can't recall the theme clearly enough to know what the black square is meant to signify, unless it's just an allusion to the activities of the hunted. If so, it seems a bit weak.

[jim360]

I thought it was meant to represent the gaping plot hole...

[Staurologist]

I am surprised that some who are willing to spend several hours cracking a tough puzzle don't seem to have the time to watch source material of this quality, after having spent what can have been no more than an hour on solving this one. Having solved it in about that time, I pulled out my collection of the evergreen source material in the different media in which it exists and spent an enjoyable couple of hours revisiting it. For those who have never experienced it, and are open-minded enough to try, it will last in your minds for much longer than this puzzle will. It should not, incidentally, be compared with (7,4)--the only common factors are the players featured here.

[Philoctetes]

Well that's a happy hour down the drain.

[Cagey]

I have often gone from crossword to experience the source, Three men in a boat for example, or revisit a source (the voyage of the argo (Magpie) or Animal farm) or to experience a new experience in music (I am not sure thanks are in order there Quinapalus!) and I will, maybe, one day, sometime, get round to indulging in the theme or the source, and I am sure that (3,11,9) is truly (11), but at the moment I have yet to catch up on the fourth Underworld film (awakening apparently), the third series (season / whatever) of Being Erica, 4379 new Clive Cussler novels, even more Julia Donaldson efforts. I simply have run out of time to experience the old while the new is still being generated!
So once I have caught up on the 4388 new Clive Cusslers I may return to the theme and indulge... but by then there may be something new, or a remake or a reboot to draw my attention.

I am still 38, today feeling 83. Managed to make a perfect toad in the hole, with no sticking of the Yorkshire pud component, no splitting or burning. Kids still picked out only the sausage component... do they not realise the number efforts sacrificed to the god of Yorkshire puddings and toads in the holes before they received that. Ingrates.
eldest (5) got his hands on camouflage cream today and decided to make himself "invisible" with it. Granted he was less visible blacked up (note he is 5, and there are no racist overtones) with the stuff given that everything surrounding him had impassively achieved the same muted blackness. But, hardly invisible.
After much washing, he still had black rings around his eyes and still looks like some sort of deeply miserable goth (or happy emo kid... similar points me thinks on the sliding scale of teenage looks).

Still 38 and there are now 4424 Clive Cussler novels to catch up on.

[sunny-dave]

Nice theme and clever substitution ...

... but I agree entirely with Scorpius and Midazolam.

The sheer number of unches seems to have meant that the clues then needed to be too easy to be a proper 'Listener' test.

Shame - there was the germ of a very good puzzle in there.