Listener 4326, Coincidence By Sabre

[TheBear69]

I've searched bu apparently there is no Friday club for this very difficult offering by Sabre. I just got 17acr so I've finally finished. Phew! One of the hardest of the year, for sure. Thanks Sabre!

Happy New Year everyone!

[Scorpius]

I've not yet finished, but there's light at the end of the tunnel. However I'm sure there are more ambiguities/uncertainties to be resolved. I found the puzzle by Radix a few weeks ago very tough and a lengthy slog, but at least it was largely fair. In this one Sabre has thrown every possible obstacle in the solver's way, making it exceedingly difficult to get an inkling of the theme, let alone complete the puzzle. Anyone hoping for enlightenment from their initial letter pairs must have been sadly disappointed. And the preamble must be the least helpful of the year.

I'm sure this will whittle down the list of all-corrects. I can also see some possible ambiguities coming up in the endgame and suspect that some who think they have completed it correctly will find out they are wrong (I include myself in that number, though I'm not in the running for all-correct status).

[olichant]

Scorpius, I think you're right about the endgame (I feel 99% confidenta and may be seeing reds under the bed, but KOHb still rankles!)

[jim360]

I've not submitted my solution yet, which is a good thing regardless of the mysteries of the full endgame as I spotted a typo at the end of 17ac... thank goodness for the mistakes earlier, then, given how hard this one has been!

[UglyUncle]

Scorpius, I agree. Despite my confidence two days ago I have dithered over submitting my solution, as I too feel there's an ambiguity, which the preamble doesn't seem to resolve. My initial gut feeling was that the statement that 'lengths in brackets refer to grid entries' ought to be good enough to determine the format required, but then I kept worrying away at the directive that letter replacements must be performed before 'entry into the grid'. There's one instance in which it seems that meeting that requirement must lead to a different final format.

Is this the sort of thing you have in mind? As Olichant hints, there'll be a lot of gnashing of teeth if Sabre has pulled the same stunt twice.

[perseverer]

For what it's worth, I feel the phrase "illustrates the cause of the coincidence" means a more complex, rather than a simple entry.

[perseverer]

......... but then again I got KOHb wrong!

[emcee]

Yes, I'm still bothered about the form of the final entry (which is why I haven't posted earlier) as I don't think I've finished it as the setter intended.

[fyellin]

"the unclued entry, when completed, illustrates ..."'

I read that sentence fragment over and over until it was clear to me what to submit. I hope I'm right.

I do, however, hate when a puzzle is this hard, and I end up not solving it correctly because of vagueness in the instructions.

[Ruthrobin]

Yes, I sent my entry, as I always do, before reading all of this, and I realize that Sabre has caught me out again (I went down after a two-year 'all correct' run with the KOHb which I still think was unfair because of the dictionary definition of the capital B which should have justified KOHB) This time, I feel that I have been blind and should have read the preamble more carefully. However, I went out earlier in the year with the TAPU thing so it doesn't really matter much to me. Sorry though, for any potential 'all corrects' who are caught by this one.

[UglyUncle]

But will JEG accept both horizontally and vertically aligned illustrations? It's beginning to look to me as if there are three ways of interpreting what might be required, each in its own way justified by the preamble.

[Scorpius]

Now I've sorted out all the letter replacements I've given some thought to what is required for the submitted grid. I agree with perseverer. A central column that doesn't show everything doesn't really show "the cause of the coincidence." I would also attach significance to the phrase quoted by fyellin, "the unclued entry, when completed." That implies additional input on the part of the solver. Lastly, if the simpler entry is the right one then there would be nothing to distinguish a solver who had understood everything about the central column and one who had missed some significant details.
I thought there was something unsatisfactory about the grid in relation to the highlighted example. I won't spell it out, but if you think about it, there's something wrong with the central column.

At least I can celebrate New Year's Eve free from any more work to be done on the puzzle. A Happy New Year to all.

[u10]

Isn't the phrase "lengths in brackets refer to grid entries" significant as well? That surely must imply the number of letters to be entered which has implications for the unclued entry - or have I missed something.

[BobHWW]

It was the "lengths in brackets" phrase that swung it for me as well. I put a note to that effect with my entry.

[Contrarian]

I disagree Scorpius.

The significance of the word "completed" in the phrase "the unclued entry, when completed", is simply that there are a couple of unchecked cells in that central column that need to be 'completed'.

In a sense, the simpler entry form does "illustrate the cause of the coincidence" (though I would prefer to omit the word "cause" - that which is represented in the central column is itself the coincidence, not its cause).

Most importantly, though, as others have noted, the more complex entry form fails to respect the stated lengths of the grid entries.

[Scorpius]

u10, you've raised an interesting point. You seem to be raising a counter-argument against the position I advanced, and that the number of letters entered in the grid should be the same as the numbers in brackets. However, that phrase is a fairly standard one used whenever the answer length doesn't match the number of cells available, so I'm not sure whether it settles the matter. If anything, it just adds to the confusion over what's intended.

[u10]

Surely the whole point of the coincidence is that two seem to be one and one of them is therefore hidden.

[Staurologist]

Is this Sabre's most time-wasting puzzle ever? I recall that "Hopfrog" in the Crossword Club's magazine many year's ago may have taken as long or perhaps longer, but this one must be a contender. At least it has some timeliness, coming at the end of the year. It is always well to remember that Sabre is not merely a mathematician, but a specialist in that most abstract topic, number theory, and that therefore precision is important. However, given all the ambiguity about how to enter the letters in the central column, perhaps someone will persuade JG to admit both methods. Happy New Year to all.

[Scorpius]

Contrarian, I accept your point that the phrase, "when completed" doesn't resolve anything. You may be right that the preamble statement about lengths in brackets implies that the relevant entries consist of the stated number of letters rather than that number of cells. However, if that is the case, the preamble suffers from an internal contradiction because of the first sentence, which is completely unambiguous and applies to one of the entries in question.

[Contrarian]

Scorpius,

Yes, you're right. That point had eluded me. In that case, I do think that the instructions are contradictory, and that JEG has to allow both entry methods.

[jim360]

Is there perhaps a third entry method that might meet all requirements even more effectively?