Listener 4353 A Ghost Story By Kevgar

[trux]

All over rather too quickly for my liking, but I enjoyed the join-up-the-dots picture-forming. Clues perhaps a bit easy for this outlet. Anyhow, now plenty of time for tennis and/or sweltering in the heat....Many thanks, KevGar

[icynorth]

Mission accomplished - thanks KevGar!

[s_pugh]

I’m glad you said that Aldanna because I suspect the same French word leapt out at me. After a rather too easy grid fill I managed to start the quotation in the wrong place at first (was the duplication a coincidence?) – and felt the word replacement a tad unconvincing – assuming that I actually have the right word that is. Judging by the earlier comments about time sensitivity I’m guessing I have. Thanks KevGar.

[Scorpius]

Lots of negative vibes on this site this week, not altogether deserved, in my view. Agreed, the clues were on the easy side, but so were Elfman's a few weeks ago; agreed, the surfaces of some of the misprint clues were a bit clunky, but the puzzle as a whole was thoroughly enjoyable, and unlike Elfman's puzzle, we were given a clear route to finding the relevant material, saving us hours of fruitless searching.

The preamble displayed some wit, which led this solver on a brief foray into hunting wild geese, since the work in question does indeed feature ghosts, one of whom can be found 'in some form' in the grid.

If this is too easy for 'this outlet' then so are ten of the previous twenty-eight Listeners, and some of those have been a good deal easier than this one.

[olichant]

I agree with Scorpius. Although, Upsetter, I think you do raise an interesting question - maybe we should start a separate thread on it?

I too was led astray with some different possibilities for the quotation - indeed, there is a mine of possible subthemes based on the overarching theme. Lots of possibilities for other puzzles (for any setter who is reading this - just a suggestion!)

Jim, I think I know the sitcom you mean.

[IainGrace]

Agree with general comments but have sympathy with Upsetter. This was on the very easy side for us - 20 minute grid fill and a quote that is likely to be the second that springs to mind for those who know the source.

[Philoctetes]

Oh dear, Jim. You have no problem with the massive overload of scientific mumbo jumbo we are assumed to know over the years, and then claim the ODQ contains too many quotes from this seminal work. Please allow us specialists a little glow of familiarity. :)

[petefoxes]

Agreed with the last few comments. This was easy, but very enjoyable. I had the grid in about 90 minutes while watching the tennis, and the quotation followed soon after (it is in my subject area, to be fair, but it isn't obscure at all).

[Whenland]

QED (quite easily done) even without the ODQ which we've ordered now anyway. Thanks for the fun Kevgar. Entry now in the hands of Royal Mail.

[jim360]

It was half in jest Philoctetes, although I do wonder what the ODQ's criteria for a particular passage or sentence being quote-worthy are. Different from mine, apparently, but that is not really to say much about the source material. I've never read it -- along with pretty much everything else from the era -- but then that's part of the reason I do these puzzles in the first place. Although I already knew this quote after all, it was (half of) one of only two out of the 49 ODQ gives from the work. Of the other 47 one is similar to another I did know but I don't think I would have had much motivation to read them but for this puzzle.

[IainGrace]

For those who find the occasional Listener puzzle underwhelming we can recommend the recent run of Inquisitor puzzles in The Independent.

[EV_Solver]

I can also recommend the current run of puzzles in the EV. Excellent offering by Ferret in there today.

[Scorpius]

Does anyone else think that the clue to 35d is a bit odd. Firstly, it uses an abbreviation that I have not seen previously in the Listener, presumably because it's not in Chambers (or in the Oxford Dictionary of English). I confess I don't have the latest Chambers. Is it in there?

Secondly, however I read the cryptic syntax I cannot get the letters in the necessary order to produce the word. Instead of 1,2,3, the clue appears to me to lead to 2,3,1. With either 'before' or 'is' removed, the cryptic leads to the answer; with both present, I don't think it does.

[EAChaplin]

I think the words 'local' and 'before' indicate it's an obsolete dialect word and is in older versions of Chambers. The wordplay seems OK to me.

[Philoctetes]

Scorpius. Is it not "1 before (3.2 is up)"? And the abbreviation is familiar to me for at least 57 years.

[Scorpius]

EAChaplin, the answer is dialect but not obsolete (the obsolete, Spenser version is a different word), so 'before' is part of the wordplay.

Philoctetes, on the surface, 'before' is adverbial introducing a subordinate clause of time; in the cryptic syntax 'before' must be a preposition indicating juxtaposition. So as not to confuse the temporal with the spatial use of 'before' try replacing 'before' with 'in front of'. That gives us '1 in front of (2.3 is up)' which makes no grammatical sense at all because you cannot have a preposition governing a clause with a finite verb like that. To me, the cryptic syntax requires '1 in front of (2.3)up', or '1 in front of (2.3 being/that is up)'.
If I say, "I stand before the flag is hoisted" that does not mean the same as "I stand before the hoisted flag." In the first, 'before' indicates time not space. The clue in question is modelled on the first example, whereas to get the required answer it needs to be modelled on the second example.

[upsetter]

Scorpius - we are entering into Mad Hatter territory here...

"Not the same thing a bit!" said the Hatter. "You might just as well say that 'I see what I eat' is the same thing as 'I eat what I see'!"
"You might just as well say," added the March Hare, "that 'I like what I get' is the same thing as 'I get what I like'!"
"You might just as well say," added the Dormouse, who seemed to be talking in his sleep, "that 'I breathe when I sleep' is the same thing as 'I sleep when I breathe'!"

I agree with you about the abbreviation is not in the BRB but had no trouble with the answer because I came across it in "Some Experiences of an Irish RM".

[Philoctetes]

Am I on a different planet here? The abbreviation is in every copy of the BRB I possess.

[perseverer]

If you mean as part of another abbreviation (you'll guess what I nearly wrote) then you are still on Earth. Otherwise, have you been on Elfman's rocket?

[Scorpius]

Upsetter, I am sorry that you think that an analysis of how a clue works or doesn't work is entering mad territory. Ximenes devoted a significant part of his book on the subject of cryptic grammar. I know many have no time for Ximenes, but clueing in the Listener is supposed to abide by Ximenean principles. Having seen editorial reasons for rejecting other clues that are similarly structured to this, I know they are normally meticulous about cryptic syntax.

[upsetter]

Scorpius - I was merely continuing your analysis with reference to the Mad Hatter's discussion on how the order of words had to be paid strict attention to in order to extract the precise meaning of a sentence.
As I knew the word was dialect, the before did not need to be considered as implying it being archaic.
I am too new to the game to have read Ximenes - but I see from Amazon that it would be a rather expensive indulgence.