Cryptic Clue Definitions

[1ozzy]

If a cryptic clue ends with a generic definition how should this be indicated?

With a question mark, exclamation mark or another means?

Eg: If the defining word was Biped but the answer was a specific two legged animal not two legged in general.

[Jackdaw33]

Usually they would add 'for example' inviting you to think of one.

[1ozzy]

Thanks Jack

[TheFrogman]

In cryptics, the generic describing the specific requires no indication, so in your example 'biped' as a definition (definition='a description of a thing according to its properties') of 'man' is fine.

It is the reverse that some people (myself included) consider an issue, eg 'man' as a "definition" of' biped', where 'man, for instance' or 'man?' would be appropriate. This is the 'definition by example'.

The 'name me a' test is a good guide for 'generics'. If I ask you to name me a biped, 'man' is a good answer. Likewise 'cod' would be good answer when asked to name a fish.

But when asked to name a man, 'Adam' would be ok but 'biped would not, and 'fish' wouldn't cut it if asked to name a cod.

For a more in-depth discussion, see my article:
http://www.thefrogman.net/index_files/Page716.htm

[dannyk13]

Or sometimes they would put ' A biped

[1ozzy]

Thanks for the reply Frogman.
The reason I posed this question is a clue I encountered today.

State in the style of Jamaican music? (6)

Alaska. The definition is obvious. State.
The wordplay "style of Jamaican music" is vague as there are many styles of music attributed to Jamaica.
Ala Ska

I wondered if the question mark was intended to indicate the "wordplay" was a bit vague/generic and if the same could be applied to a definition.

I'm still wondering

Ps: Had a look at the link you supplied. Food for thought

Thanks

[dannyk13]

Ozzy, I doubt any of the other styles of music would lead to a state.

[TheFrogman]

I can't think of anyone (myself included, and I'm very picky) who would have a problem with the ALASKA clue without the question mark.

A question mark can be used to indicate a fanciful wordplay, as in this rather similar clue from a recent Azed puzzle, 'Music from Jamaican immigrants in drag (sort of)?' for BRITSKA, where BRITSKA ('Music from Jamaican immigrants...?' ) is an imagined analogy to BRITPOP.

But in the ALASKA clue, the wordplay is a straight 'charade' - 'in the style of' = ALA and 'Jamaican music' = SKA. Though I can't make too much sense of the surface reading...

[1ozzy]

I doubt they would either Danny.

But I'm interested to know how a generic wordplay/definition is usually indicated.
Is there a standard?
Or should it be indicated within the wordplay itself?

[dannyk13]

Each setter has his/her way of doing things.

[1ozzy]

Thanks Frogman, you are indicating that the question mark was superfluous

I'm a slow learner, tried to solve my first cryptic only a couple of years ago.
Every setter I come across seems to have a different opinion as to how clues should be written.

Still learning and appreciating all the info I gather. Thanks

[Mamyalynne]

There are of course standardised rules , but setters are forever tweaking them and pushing the boundaries and in some cases ignoring them altogether.

Makes it a little more confusing for the solver but adds to the 'surprise' factor.

[1ozzy]

Thanks Danny.

[1ozzy]

Nothing quite like that "penny dropped" moment Mamya.

I'll live and learn ;-)

[TheFrogman]

For anyone interested in what is and isn't 'generally acceptable' in cluing terms, I would strongly recommend the Sunday Times Clue Writing Contest website:

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/public/article807355.ece

This weekly contest (open to all) is judged by Peter Biddlecombe, twice winner of the Times Crossword Championship and now crossword editor of the ST. The objective is to produce a clue of similar standard to those in the ST Crossword.

His views both on what he terms 'good clues' and on 'other clues' (whose authors remain anonymous, as they are usually clues which he considers unsound), are always worth reading.