Listener 4361 Two For The Price Of One By Monk

[Contrarian]

Pretty easy grid fill, and an interesting second puzzle. I do quite enjoy puzzles of this second type, but the ones I have seen before tend to be very trivial. This one was a little more challenging.

Thanks Monk.


(Apologies if there is already a thread for this crossword. I couldn't find one, but with the unpredictable Answerbank search function, that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist.)

[AHearer]

I enjoyed the crossword part, which had good clues, some of which were quite tricky. I can't say the same for the train tracks part -- I've never had enough patience to practise those, so I found it hard. Thanks, though, to Monk for a novel twist (of the knife?).

[jim360]

A rainy day here in St. Petersburg. Pretty miserable actually. And my host for the week is out. So I settled down to do this one and, despite a bit of stumbling on the grid fill (and, at the time of writing, an annoying gap at 7dn still), the second puzzle was rather easy. I thought at least two of the special cells were redundant -- possibly another couple, if it comes to that -- although I suppose it makes sense to provide more guidance for those unfamiliar with the second puzzle.

[jim360]

Also it occurred to me that one of the regulars at AB won 4358, so congratulations to ruthrobin!

[AHearer]

You're obviously better at train tracks than I am, jim360. I confess to having resorted to a spreadsheet to keep track (no pun intended) of the row and column sums -- actually, with appropriate symbols used for the elements of the path, it looked quite pretty!

[starwalker]

Nice to see a Monk puzzle after so long, but some of the clues gave me a serious bot of head-scratching. I have a full grid, but the train and its tracks will have to sit and wait until tomorrow. Thanks Monk, and congrats to RR on her prize.

[Ruthrobin]

RR thanks you - that prize broke a very long unbroken run of entries without a prize (over five years) - must have been a record. Enjoyed this one but the train track has taken twice as long as the puzzle.

[midazolam]

This has to be puzzle divided if ever I saw one. Lovely selection of deceptive clues and hats off for designing a puzzle like this with a unique solution with a theme away from quotations / extra letter in wordplay / giant leaps.

However I am baffled by the setting of the grid. Perhaps the 15x8 was necessary because of the specified track, but why the asymmetrical nature. Surely this is unnecessary. If the track created (all) real words or it bypassed crossing bars I could understand the reason behind why Monk created the grid like this. I feel there was an opportunity missed as it had so much potential.

[aldanna]

Enjoyed the fairly easy gridfill, but knowing the second puzzle was not my sort of thing, I roped in Himself and we were comfortably in the Friday club. Yes, we had spotted RR's win as well and I was going to be the first to post congratulations, though without being able to begin with the miserable weather in St. Petersburg. It was nice and sunny in NE England!

[Ruthrobin]

The September Magpie has just arrived http://www.piemag.com/ and has a foreword by Shane which discusses this site and the STMNBM. It is far more comprehensive than the one that appeared in the August Magpie, recognising that this site has a value in encouraging and helping newcomers (though, he pleads, giving help off-line and not blatantly revealing solutions here). He seems to appreciate that the 'self-appointed' police keep this site 'clean'.

[Scorpius]

Filled the grid reasonably quickly, but I can't say the endgame excites me at all. I'm finding it a bit fiddly and may give up out of boredom. I like AHearer's suggestion of a spreadsheet.

I wish there was some editorial consistency regarding regional indicators. Setters have been told that regional/dialect/archaic/obsolete usage must be indicated, but there is nothing to indicate one of the definitions in 28 is Scottish. There have been so many similar lapses this year that I'm beginning to wonder if the rule has been abandoned.

[petefoxes]

I don't think the logic of Train Tracks is anywhere near as demanding as, say, the logic of last week's numerical, but then I do usually do them in the Saturday Times so I have had some practice. I enjoyed the clues (especially 27d which raised a chuckle) and the step-by-step laying out of the tracks at the end - cheers, Monk.

[UglyUncle]

As others have said, a fairly easy gridfill with lots of clever and amusing clues. Good: I enjoy crosswords.

But the train track add-on isn't something I can find the time or interest to be bothered with. If I were still submitting, I think I'd be pretty cross about it. No doubt there's some mathematical or logical key that sorts everything out, but it's lost on me. Not Angry, just heaving a weary sigh of resignation.

[IainGrace]

Well done, RR. Long time since we have won too. Jim360, can help with 7dn if needed. Now back to the tracks.....

[UglyUncle]

Oh and, by the way, the Scottish aspect of the answer to 28 is probably justifiably lacking in qualification in the clue, which itself uses a self-evidently Scottish word. The problem with it is that the setter is unfamiliar with Scottish rural life: the two words are not synonyms.

[Telramund]

Same as you, UU. I completed the crossword part (which I enjoyed, Monk is a fine setter) and left it there. I do appreciate that variety is the spice of Listeners and this puzzle will no doubt appeal to many, so I'm not complaining about the puzzle itself. But it's perhaps not the best decision to schedule a puzzle with a predominant non-verbal element the week after a numerical?

[Cloverjo]

I wish I could solve all the clues in order to get to the bit that I might do well at.

[Scorpius]

UglyUncle, I don't really accept your justification for the absence of a Scottish indicator. The relevant word in the clue is not specifically Scottish; all Chambers has to say is '...in Scotland especially'.
In the past there was no rule about this and it was left to the setter's discretion, which I thought was fine. Then the rules changed (not only in the Listener). The problem with rules is that they need to be consistently applied, and that is not always the case. I would much prefer these things to be left to the setter's discretion. It's not as if the rule makes clues easier to solve - in fact I can recall some examples where it made things harder.

On the "train tracks" puzzle, I have traced a path that conforms to the numerical and other constraints, and I have traced another, slightly different path that conforms to those same constraints. Oh dear!

[jim360]

I'd be interested in seeing both paths for myself -- I could find only one.

Still missing 7a if it comes to that.

[olichant]

I found the gridfill a little harder than others have done, but quite enjoyed the endgame. I actually bought a hard copy of the Times yesterday and did the train tracks game in the puzzle section (and royally messed it up). Thanks, Monk.

[olichant]

ps - Scorpius, I agree - it would be nice if regional indicators, etc, could be left to the setter's discretion. Sometimes they have their place (and can be exploited to give nice misleading surfaces, etc.) - other times, they can just be clunky and add little to the fairness of a clue.