10 Still In The Race, Running (7,7)
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Royal Mail Deliberate Failure
21 Answers
What seems to me to be a distinctly crass situation exists in how Royal Mail deal with items posted at a post office to destinations abroad.
Apart from the normal/standard service there are a range of premium services which include the requirement for a signature on delivery, online tracking, etc. In a previous thread I already explained how the more expensive International Tracked provides less service than International Tracked and Signed.
It transpires that there is a more absurd anomaly in their behaviour. In the UK Royal Mail hand mail destined for abroad (at least some premium paid for items) to a private courier company which cannot deliver to certain perfectly valid postal addresses. This applies in particular to post boxes - in other countries it is possibly more common than in the UK for people to have post box addresses (at post offices and elsewhere, not just as a bank of slots outside flats, etc.).
Nobody can walk into a post office and expect them to put an item into any post box (unless you pay the postal fee). So what happens is that the courier holds onto it for some days and then sends it back, there is nothing else they can do - in the tracking info they enter that delivery was attempted several times and that it failed ! They know they can't deliver so it probably never goes any further than the first depot. If no return address is on the envelope/package then it will be destroyed. Royal Mail is bound to also know this - there is a name for this and it is wilful stupidity.
However, provided there is a telephone number on the envelope/packaging then the courier will hopefully call that number to arrange a delivery/rendezvous. A telephone number is of course not a required/mandatory part of a postal address.
I would be interested in knowing what others feel about this attitude to a legal responsibility which Royal Mail have regarding the postal service they are to provide under their licence to operate. Meanwhile I suggest that those wanting to avoid trouble put a contact telephone number on the outside of their item when posting to abroad - and remember that if you don't have a number available you should probably not send anything.
Apart from the normal/standard service there are a range of premium services which include the requirement for a signature on delivery, online tracking, etc. In a previous thread I already explained how the more expensive International Tracked provides less service than International Tracked and Signed.
It transpires that there is a more absurd anomaly in their behaviour. In the UK Royal Mail hand mail destined for abroad (at least some premium paid for items) to a private courier company which cannot deliver to certain perfectly valid postal addresses. This applies in particular to post boxes - in other countries it is possibly more common than in the UK for people to have post box addresses (at post offices and elsewhere, not just as a bank of slots outside flats, etc.).
Nobody can walk into a post office and expect them to put an item into any post box (unless you pay the postal fee). So what happens is that the courier holds onto it for some days and then sends it back, there is nothing else they can do - in the tracking info they enter that delivery was attempted several times and that it failed ! They know they can't deliver so it probably never goes any further than the first depot. If no return address is on the envelope/package then it will be destroyed. Royal Mail is bound to also know this - there is a name for this and it is wilful stupidity.
However, provided there is a telephone number on the envelope/packaging then the courier will hopefully call that number to arrange a delivery/rendezvous. A telephone number is of course not a required/mandatory part of a postal address.
I would be interested in knowing what others feel about this attitude to a legal responsibility which Royal Mail have regarding the postal service they are to provide under their licence to operate. Meanwhile I suggest that those wanting to avoid trouble put a contact telephone number on the outside of their item when posting to abroad - and remember that if you don't have a number available you should probably not send anything.
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Royal Mail quite clearly state "International Tracked & Signed or International Signed items cannot be sent to PO Boxes and delivery points where there is no-one to sign for the item", so I can't see where your problem lies:
http://
(It's under 'Before you mail', at the foot of the page).
Items which aren't 'signed for' are normally delivered to PO box numbers with no problems. (I've sent loads of stuff by snail mail to a fellow ABer in the Rocky Mountains, with a PO Box address, with no problems. I've also had no problems sending to PO Boxes in the Netherlands and elsewhere).
http://
(It's under 'Before you mail', at the foot of the page).
Items which aren't 'signed for' are normally delivered to PO box numbers with no problems. (I've sent loads of stuff by snail mail to a fellow ABer in the Rocky Mountains, with a PO Box address, with no problems. I've also had no problems sending to PO Boxes in the Netherlands and elsewhere).
-- answer removed --
Why is one left to trawl for small print explaining the limitations of their service instead of this being made clear at the counter ? The post offices overseas where the P.O. Boxes are located hold the items (a card to this effect is put in the box, just like if you are not home in the UK) and in the UK the items are taken to a post office for collection where and when they are signed for. The difference is that Royal Mail take the overseas bound items out of the postal system (while they are subject to the UPU international agreement) and hand it to a private courier firm which they know makes this sort of mail undeliverable. I don't know of any other country where this is done. If the mail remains within the postal system then it is deliverable to any valid postal address in any country.
I accept that all of the respondents so far find this acceptable (admirable initiative ?) but I do not.
I accept that all of the respondents so far find this acceptable (admirable initiative ?) but I do not.
There is something else: So far as I know, there is an internationally agreed inviolable sanctity of mail whereby, unlike with telephone or internet communications, an especially onerous international obligation applies to governments not to tamper with mail (although in some countries this has been commonplace). Once the mail is "abandoned" by a postal authority into the hands of a third party, this protection is thrown out the window. This is probably why doing what Royal Mail does is not copied outside the UK - does this amount to protection of civil rights in an "advanced" country ?
PO boxes in North America are very common and are a part of the Post Office. The boxes are stacked one on top of each other in a part of the Post Office and have a box number and a key and if there is a signed for parcel waiting for you they put a message in your box, you go to the counter and sign for it.
Retrochic's description is correct for European practice as well. Bednobs probably has no experience of that practice, which is not generally obviously visible in the UK because the post office (note, as in the old GPO) boxes, which actually exist, are (to my knowledge) hidden in a separate/back area ("private/elite", in genuine UK fashion) - in my locality they are (or at least were some years ago) served separately at a "special" counter - you took your ID there and the contents were brought to you (you signed for any mail requiring a signature and I think the collection was logged). I imagine that today these boxes continue to be operated in a similar fashion and that signed for mail continues to be delivered to them - have a look at this http://
My "beef" is that when you hand an item for postal delivery anywhere one assumes it will be delivered through the postal network, including internationally. What Royal Mail in fact does is to sub-contract the overseas part to a commercial subsidiary of theirs which, unless I am wrong, is in fact no different to any courier service. I don't like the thought that equates to a letter on its way to me being handed by a Royal Mail depot to a bus driver going in my direction. The bus driver will take it to the nearest bus stop to me but then take it back as undeliverable because I was not standing there and live some 100m away.
A letter to a P.O. box abroad generally amounts to the destination address being the post office in question. The postal service in that country delivers to those P.O.Boxes all the time, nothing odd, perfectly routine. The point is that Royal Mail heaves the mail out of the postal service and puts it into the hands of a party who cannot deliver in the same way, nor can it deliver to any/all addresses that the postal service can and does on a daily basis.
Mamyalynne, I have and await a reply.
My "beef" is that when you hand an item for postal delivery anywhere one assumes it will be delivered through the postal network, including internationally. What Royal Mail in fact does is to sub-contract the overseas part to a commercial subsidiary of theirs which, unless I am wrong, is in fact no different to any courier service. I don't like the thought that equates to a letter on its way to me being handed by a Royal Mail depot to a bus driver going in my direction. The bus driver will take it to the nearest bus stop to me but then take it back as undeliverable because I was not standing there and live some 100m away.
A letter to a P.O. box abroad generally amounts to the destination address being the post office in question. The postal service in that country delivers to those P.O.Boxes all the time, nothing odd, perfectly routine. The point is that Royal Mail heaves the mail out of the postal service and puts it into the hands of a party who cannot deliver in the same way, nor can it deliver to any/all addresses that the postal service can and does on a daily basis.
Mamyalynne, I have and await a reply.
KARL how do you expect the Royal Mail to deliver an item to a country where there is no Royal Mail? I sell lots of stuff to Europe North America and Asia and despite the fact that Royal Mail will hand over delivery to local sources, if anything goes wrong, its the Royal Mail you apply to for Compensation and its Royal Mail that pays you . It is not always a courier that takes over but the National mail service : USPS in America (UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE) or equivalent in Europe ( La Poste for instance in France) What you are describing abut holding onto to mail is exactly what Royal Mail would do with an Internal signed for UK parcel -drop off a card and give you instructions how to either pick it up or reschedule delivery. I am really struggling to see your 'point'
Retrochic, you do indeed fail to see the point, but it is a bit odd that you do since you describe exactly the same expectations as I have. Like you, I expect Royal Mail to hand the item on to the national mail service in the destination country - in the case I am dealing with they did not but instead handed it to their subsidiary which is a commercial courier company NOT THE POSTAL AUTHORITIES (maybe this is what you fail to pick up, although I did describe it).
In fact, although Royal Mail and the courier are tied and work hand in hand in the UK (for outgoing traffic), the courier is distinctly separate from the foreign national postal authorities with no overlap at all and, unless they were to post the letter (i.e. within the postal service) in the destination country, they cannot see it into a P.O. Box. The letter was put onto a truck and sent to a central depot in Germany from where the items are distributed radially to countries east, west, north and south, again by truck, (mine should have gone directly south instead of this detour). This operation outside the UK is a courier service owned by Royal Mail and has nothing at all to do with any other national postal service outside the UK (wholly separate of them all with no interconnection at all, any more than with FedEx, DHL, etc. outside their domestic bases). The firm's name is GLS.
This is Royal Mail's way of holding onto business to the end destination and moving into foreign territories in carrying it out - in fact, it is actually (contrary to what you suggest is unthinkable) Royal Mail delivering abroad under another name (but missing out certain postal addresses). It does the foreign postal services out of business and skews the traffic balance and related payment regime for postal services between countries as per the UPU protocol (in favour of the UK). While it may be sharp business it is not what you or I expect when posting a letter to an international destination at a post office in the UK and in the particular case in question it completely ruins the delivery.
If the above does not explain my point then let me know and I will try again.
In fact, although Royal Mail and the courier are tied and work hand in hand in the UK (for outgoing traffic), the courier is distinctly separate from the foreign national postal authorities with no overlap at all and, unless they were to post the letter (i.e. within the postal service) in the destination country, they cannot see it into a P.O. Box. The letter was put onto a truck and sent to a central depot in Germany from where the items are distributed radially to countries east, west, north and south, again by truck, (mine should have gone directly south instead of this detour). This operation outside the UK is a courier service owned by Royal Mail and has nothing at all to do with any other national postal service outside the UK (wholly separate of them all with no interconnection at all, any more than with FedEx, DHL, etc. outside their domestic bases). The firm's name is GLS.
This is Royal Mail's way of holding onto business to the end destination and moving into foreign territories in carrying it out - in fact, it is actually (contrary to what you suggest is unthinkable) Royal Mail delivering abroad under another name (but missing out certain postal addresses). It does the foreign postal services out of business and skews the traffic balance and related payment regime for postal services between countries as per the UPU protocol (in favour of the UK). While it may be sharp business it is not what you or I expect when posting a letter to an international destination at a post office in the UK and in the particular case in question it completely ruins the delivery.
If the above does not explain my point then let me know and I will try again.
I always put my address as the sender on any item I post especially items sent abroad.
When I lived in Zambia and Saudi Arabia we had only post boxes, if there was a recorded delivery item for me there would be a note put in the post box. I had to go to the post office with my ID to collect the item.
When I lived in Zambia and Saudi Arabia we had only post boxes, if there was a recorded delivery item for me there would be a note put in the post box. I had to go to the post office with my ID to collect the item.
You've obviously had something lost or redirected in the Post. It must have been very important for you to have done all this research but frankly as soon as you hand over any parcel to any service provider you are in the lap of the Gods. I've always found Royal Mail to be very helpful to the point a parcel wrongly addressed by myself ended up 200 miles away from where it should have been and one phone call had it sent on to the correct buyer first class with no extra charge to me. I cannot say the same for My Hermes which has cost me hundreds of pounds in damaged goods which I have never been able to recover.
This is what KARL is talking about
http://
Royal Mail uses this company to send overseas post rather than passing it over to the destination country's own national post service. Which was a surprise to me !
http://
Royal Mail uses this company to send overseas post rather than passing it over to the destination country's own national post service. Which was a surprise to me !
I have not yet lost anything but I have had something returned to sender before because of Royal Mail's shenanigans and now something that was to take 3-5 working days en-route looks like it will take 12 weekdays in total, that is if it can be intercepted before it too is sent back. This compares very poorly with something sent the same way (tracked with signature) from a different European country to the same destination: A week indicated and it took a week, and delivered to the P.O.Box.
I have not done any research at all (apart from checking to confirm) as everything was already known to me - that is except for the revelation regarding Royal Mail's conduct.
I have not done any research at all (apart from checking to confirm) as everything was already known to me - that is except for the revelation regarding Royal Mail's conduct.
Yes EDDIE, that is correct but the international versions (signed and not signed for) are both tracked, although in the case of inbound international registered/signed for mail Royal Mail appear to only provide one point of "scanning" which is on or around arrival at HWDC which apparently is a notorious "black hole" where things can languish for days without progress or tracking update and no information is provided at all once the item finally is delivered. They appear to take the arrogant view that senders of (foreign) mail into the UK should be satisfied that all is well once it is in British hands - keep the faith.
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