Listener No 4463 The Evolution Of East Perry By The Ace Of Hearts

[Ruthrobin]

Nice to have a circular one and we were given a very generous hint from the start but the very last two words we had to enter have taken almost as long as the rest of the grid fill. I have had a good grumble but thanks, anyway to The Ace of Hearts.

[Ruthrobin]

Oh dear, Midgler, so sorry, I was in no way meaning to suggest exclusivity and you have just as much right here as me. Please don't 'keep your counsel'! I think this site really tries to avoid doing what happens on the other one (actually giving answers). I believe people who post here have usually completed their solve before they come here and are solvers who probably submit their entry. The 'other site' is probably people who simply wish to complete their crossword and are frustrated by something they can't parse - I imagine most of them wouldn't submit an entry after being given some of the solutions.

[Scorpius]

Midgler, please don't be discouraged from future posts. New names appear on this forum from time to time and it's refreshing to see. I can't really spell out what I see as slightly problematic (and whether it stemmed from your posts or not) without breaking the adopted conventions of the forum myself.
In general, I think it's fine to mention problems encountered en route, even mentioning specific clue numbers that presented difficulties, so long as nothing is given away that could affect another person's solving.

[12barblues]

Agree, there is no ambiguity once you find A. Still got one to parse even though only one possibility for the entry, and it's not 10!

[midgler]

Scorpius, I really can't let that go. You referred to the 'substantial' help given by one or more of the posts following yours. I can see nothing in any of the posts that provides any clues as to a solution, other than the (hardly dramatic) revelation that 5 is susceptible of two solutions which are anagrams of each other. Compare that with your own first post, which to me fits the definition of 'substantial' help much more closely: "I got the bulk of the theme very early because many misprints were very easy to identify, then from my fist type B solve I compiled a list of possible and looked for clues that fitted the rest, though one proved elusive. All this early success should have made for an early finish, but I was floundering in the last leg of the race. 10 certainly almost did for me - very obscure. Four others gave me trouble at the end, though in hindsight the clues to those were perfectly straightforward."

Ruthrobin - apology accepted. I have been doing the Listener for several years, nearly always finish it unaided, and sometimes submit an entry. Occasionally, if I am completely stumped, I may check the other forum but will never, having done so, submit an entry. Recently I have been visiting this forum after solving, because it seemed a pleasant place to exchange views about the elegance or otherwise of a puzzle and sometimes to give or receive hints that a particular aspect of a puzzle should not be underestimated (eg the Shackleton 6-5 or 6-6 debate or, in the current puzzle, over the nature of A). However, as others have observed recently, it does now seem to be increasingly a place for people to show off about how quickly they have completed a puzzle. I think this is a pity, but it's your 'club' and your rules.

[icynorth]

I suspect we're all violently agreeing with each other here :-)

I've not joined the Times Crossword club, but I recognise many here have, and I'd never want to break any unwritten rules of this forum.

I invest a lot of time and mental effort into each puzzle, and it's nice to unwind afterwards and share some general feedback. I believe some of the folks here are setters, and they may find it helpful. It's always honest. I'd trust folks here to tell me directly if I'd made a faux pas. We all need feedback :-)

[Scorpius]

Apologies Midgler and others for any upset I have caused. I probably should not have posted my second post. "Substantial'' was admittedly an overstatement.

As for my my first post from which you have quoted, I don't think I did give anything away except that certain aspects were difficult, especially clue 10, which had already been mentioned.

I'm afraid the issue to which I was referring will have to remain veiled.

[contendo]

In my view inclusion of the jumbled name of geographical site which is too obscure to be shown in The Times Comprehensive Atlas of the World is unquestionably below the belt.

[olichant]

Definitely stay please midgler - your thoughts are interesting and welcomed! The more the merrier. Everyone has their own tolerance and it is quite nice that themes or specific approaches to clues aren't discussed openly here and there's another much more open venue for that. But it's still really interesting hearing people's responses to puzzles. When I first started solving these things, I used to come here just to gauge whether a puzzle was even worth attempting or not, and it's always fascinating to see how different people find different puzzles. Plus it's reassuring that others are putting themselves through this curious form of masochism every weekend.

And I think my comment above was a bit grumpy. Having finished the puzzle, I found it a really interesting challenge, and the grid fill was really quite tricky. In particular, I found the misprints fun rather than a chore.

Plus, I guess 10's taught us all something new...

[olichant]

Oops - I meant jumbled entries, not misprints.

[midgler]

Yes, well, no hard feelings anyone: I'm sorry if I broke the rules. The puzzle was hard enough but I have put almost as much effort subsequently into trying to work out how any of the posts on this thread offer any help, substantial or otherwise, to solvers. If we are indeed in the Kafkaesqe situation where the act of explaining this would itself amount to a breach of the rules, please could someone in the know email me at [email protected]

[IainGrace]

Agree with the general tenor of the comments. An easy "in" but a very hard "exit". A fair puzzle, though, and good to get a circular one occasionally. As for the Midgler debate, I would say that people here do know "the rules" and any breach of them is occasional and wholly inadvertent.

[Hagen]

I've only just got round to this. I agree that there is one obscurity which pushes the boundaries given the multiple methods of entry, but otherwise a good fun puzzle. I had the wrong A almost until I finished.

FWIW, I read this thread before starting and there was nothing here that gave the game away for me.

[taittinger]

Enjoyable puzzle, though not sure how 10 got past the editorial border guards

[Scree]

Puzzled by Ruthrobin's comment:
"Any mention at all of a current crossword is totally disapproved of by the 'powers that be' - and in particular the marker".
Surely every thread about a particular puzzle mentions that puzzle.
I appreciate that this site is largely a group of friends, many of you setters, responding to the latest Listener without giving anything away, and I've always tried to respect that convention.
In this case I feel that a jumbled answer which is not in Chambers and is extremely obscure is unfair to the solver. I patiently worked my way through this puzzle to be left with one letter which I couldn't get.
I glanced at another site to see whether other people were having the same problem, and was given the answer. Moral dilemma: should I submit my entry? I might well have got there in the end by zooming in and searching diligently.
I happened to read further and realised that my two word entry was wrong - the title gave a phrase but I was meant to think laterally and come up with another phrase I've never heard of. Which explains why the one suggested by the title didn't fit the definition around the circumference! Moral dilemma solved - couldn't possibly submit now.
No criticism of The Ace of Hearts, but I much preferred last week's puzzle. Looked impossible with no clue lengths given, but gradually yielded, and reading the rubric carefully helped. Loved the colourful finish. Couldn't understand the suggestion on this forum that there night be ambiguity about where to put the thick lines, just drew them in.
Whereas this puzzle exemplifies the Listener need to be extra clever, with another hoop to jump through after you finish the puzzle. As a mere solver, I don't need that. All's fair in love and Listener crosswords, but it's disappointing to find that even if you'd solved the fiendish clue there was a phrase you'd never heard of, rather than the phrase clearly suggested, which you were meant to pick up from the ether.
The real problem is there in my head when I'm sitting on the bus doing a crossword. Maybe just an Azed or the Times Jumbo. I'm vaguely aware that I'm doing something few other people on the bus could do. Some part of me feels superior.
It would be salutary if someone glanced over and said "Doing a wordsearch?" We can get too precious about the hallowed Listener -
it's only a crossword puzzle when all's said and done.