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At What Price?
At what price does a customs union have to be to be not worth the money you pay?
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Best case senario we get a customs deal with the EU that is good for both the UK and EU at a cost (to us especially) that is acceptable? Easy peesy right?? Both parties should be united in this aim. But where does the divergence come in?
At what price are we and should we be willing to pay? In both monetary and regulatory terms and in our ability to garner deals world wide without interference?
Under what terms regarding regulatory and our ability to trade world wide, are both parties willing to accept?
Both parties should be doing the same thing surely? Best of EU, best of the world. Anything less and they are selling us short.
http://
Best case senario we get a customs deal with the EU that is good for both the UK and EU at a cost (to us especially) that is acceptable? Easy peesy right?? Both parties should be united in this aim. But where does the divergence come in?
At what price are we and should we be willing to pay? In both monetary and regulatory terms and in our ability to garner deals world wide without interference?
Under what terms regarding regulatory and our ability to trade world wide, are both parties willing to accept?
Both parties should be doing the same thing surely? Best of EU, best of the world. Anything less and they are selling us short.
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Why pay anything other than one's country's own costs ? Anything else is extortion. Besides, telling a nation how they can trade with others outside the unionmakes it already unacceptable. Then there's the single market 4 impositions that aren't acceptable either, but they'd try to impose them as well. Unless there is a dramatic change of EU policy a customs union at any price seems too much.
Yes OG, our own costs for what we 'buy into' only.
But you know that whatever the colour of the political power in play at the time will struggle with this notion.
Why do some people want to ham string us? Why do they rely on the EU 'common market' to what appears to be the exlusion of everything else?
Actually we do want our cake and eat it. Why should we be grateful to accept the mouldy left overs?
There are some things we have a common interest in. Such as nuclear provision, security and intelligence but where is the common interest in our not being able to make trade deals where we see fit?
How much money and inevitably sovereignty do the political powers want to cede to the EU? For me, money the cost only of the areas we want or need to be part of but not a penny to prop up their waste-fullness. Will they be able to give signed off accounts for these areas?
Not one jot of sovereignty should be given over to them in any shape or form. As an independent nation why should we?
But you know that whatever the colour of the political power in play at the time will struggle with this notion.
Why do some people want to ham string us? Why do they rely on the EU 'common market' to what appears to be the exlusion of everything else?
Actually we do want our cake and eat it. Why should we be grateful to accept the mouldy left overs?
There are some things we have a common interest in. Such as nuclear provision, security and intelligence but where is the common interest in our not being able to make trade deals where we see fit?
How much money and inevitably sovereignty do the political powers want to cede to the EU? For me, money the cost only of the areas we want or need to be part of but not a penny to prop up their waste-fullness. Will they be able to give signed off accounts for these areas?
Not one jot of sovereignty should be given over to them in any shape or form. As an independent nation why should we?
Far too much emphasis is being placed on the treat to trade (which will continue, with or without an agreement) and far too little on the issue of sovereignty. The other 27 nations (or at least their politicians) seem quite prepared to relinquish sovereignty to make life easy for themselves. When the question was put to the UK electorate the majority of those voting decided the price (in terms of impositions upon UK law) was too great. It is that aspect of the argument (and the answer the electorate gave) that UK politicians should concentrate on. Nobody with any sense believed leaving the EU would be easy. But you don’t decline to do something because it’s a bit tricky.
The Single Market and Customs Union are protectionist concepts which allow members to do what they like within the bloc but to do nothing outside it. The EU’s share of global GDP is rapidly declining and to allow ourselves to be tied to a declining entity would be just about as daft as it can get.
The Single Market and Customs Union are protectionist concepts which allow members to do what they like within the bloc but to do nothing outside it. The EU’s share of global GDP is rapidly declining and to allow ourselves to be tied to a declining entity would be just about as daft as it can get.
‘Nobody with any sense believed leaving the EU would be easy’
There has been and continues to be a few leave voters on here who still think we can ‘just leave’. Which kind of proves your point I suppose.
‘The Single Market and Customs Union are protectionist concepts which allow members to do what they like within the bloc but to do nothing outside it’
This is not true. The customs union paves the way for trade with countries outside the EU. The EU, acting on behalf of the UK and other member states, has negotiated trade deals with countries around the world. The point of these deals is to make it easier for the EU's exporters to sell abroad, keep imports relatively cheap and at the same time protect the member states' own businesses and consumers as much as possible.
Credit: New Statesman article.
There has been and continues to be a few leave voters on here who still think we can ‘just leave’. Which kind of proves your point I suppose.
‘The Single Market and Customs Union are protectionist concepts which allow members to do what they like within the bloc but to do nothing outside it’
This is not true. The customs union paves the way for trade with countries outside the EU. The EU, acting on behalf of the UK and other member states, has negotiated trade deals with countries around the world. The point of these deals is to make it easier for the EU's exporters to sell abroad, keep imports relatively cheap and at the same time protect the member states' own businesses and consumers as much as possible.
Credit: New Statesman article.
// The EU’s share of global GDP is rapidly declining and to allow ourselves to be tied to a declining entity would be just about as daft as it can get. //
While the share may be declining, the EU economy is still very big. We need to make it as easy as possible to continue trading with the EU. Anyone imagining we don’t need EU customers, and we can trade with the rest of the world as a replacement, is living in cloud cuckoo land.
We need to minimise the effects of ditching the single market, not make it worse by cutting off our noses.
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While the share may be declining, the EU economy is still very big. We need to make it as easy as possible to continue trading with the EU. Anyone imagining we don’t need EU customers, and we can trade with the rest of the world as a replacement, is living in cloud cuckoo land.
We need to minimise the effects of ditching the single market, not make it worse by cutting off our noses.
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‘Cutting off our noses’ was exactly the intention of many leave voters, I’m positive. The general education level of many voters (both leave and remain) on the process and consequences of Brexit was dire. The ‘little englander’ contingent of the British populace was given an opportunity to make a protest vote and they took it.
There is nothing stopping us negotiating to be a part of THE common market or A common market. However the cost of that should not be prohibitive. We should get a big return on that cost otherwise it isn't worth it. Surely everyone understands that? But in any case it shouldn't stop us building trade deals world wide.
The simple and unequivocal fact is the world is a lot bigger than just the EU. And as NJ says sovereignty is what a lot of people voted for when they voted to leave. I doubt many voted leave on the back of a single argument. It is of course easy for Remainers to say it was all about immigration and we are racists. The amount of times it has been said on here is astronomical.
I want this country to be able to make its own laws and have self determination, I want this country to have ultimate sovereignty, I want this country to stand on its own feet and make deals that are for our benefit and be proud of that fact. NOT some bureaucrats in Brussels or Strasbourg or wherever they happen to relocate every two weeks.
Being ham-strung is a defeatist attitude to want to take.
Aim for as much of what we want. We are unlikely to get that but at some point the dive down from that becomes unpalatable.
Can the Remainers amongst us tell me what is the point of unpalatableness?
The simple and unequivocal fact is the world is a lot bigger than just the EU. And as NJ says sovereignty is what a lot of people voted for when they voted to leave. I doubt many voted leave on the back of a single argument. It is of course easy for Remainers to say it was all about immigration and we are racists. The amount of times it has been said on here is astronomical.
I want this country to be able to make its own laws and have self determination, I want this country to have ultimate sovereignty, I want this country to stand on its own feet and make deals that are for our benefit and be proud of that fact. NOT some bureaucrats in Brussels or Strasbourg or wherever they happen to relocate every two weeks.
Being ham-strung is a defeatist attitude to want to take.
Aim for as much of what we want. We are unlikely to get that but at some point the dive down from that becomes unpalatable.
Can the Remainers amongst us tell me what is the point of unpalatableness?
No problem. Your garbled reasoning only reinforces my argument. I did use the phrase ‘many’ leave voters but if you want to place yourself in that category then that’s fine by me.
‘We should get a big return on that cost otherwise it isn't worth it’ and how will this be achieved and what timescale are we looking at?
‘It is of course easy for Remainers to say it was all about immigration and we are racists. The amount of times it has been said on here is astronomical‘ Find me 4 or 5 examples where a remainer has said this. Not an astronomical amount, just 4 or 5.
‘Aim for as much of what we want. We are unlikely to get that but at some point the dive down from that becomes unpalatable’ Who decides what is and isn’t ‘unpalatable’?
‘Can the Remainers amongst us tell me what is the point of unpalatableness?’ I have no idea what this means. It was you who brought up the ‘unpalatablness’. I’ve no idea what it means in such a context.
‘We should get a big return on that cost otherwise it isn't worth it’ and how will this be achieved and what timescale are we looking at?
‘It is of course easy for Remainers to say it was all about immigration and we are racists. The amount of times it has been said on here is astronomical‘ Find me 4 or 5 examples where a remainer has said this. Not an astronomical amount, just 4 or 5.
‘Aim for as much of what we want. We are unlikely to get that but at some point the dive down from that becomes unpalatable’ Who decides what is and isn’t ‘unpalatable’?
‘Can the Remainers amongst us tell me what is the point of unpalatableness?’ I have no idea what this means. It was you who brought up the ‘unpalatablness’. I’ve no idea what it means in such a context.
Question Author Oh here it is. The little englander who is to stupid to understand. To ignorant to do anything but cut off its nose to spite its face. Cassa 333 Correction from one of the Little Englanders who is TOO stupid to understand. & TOO ignorant to do anything. Before you engage on here it might be good to get into understandable English.
Yes well I am too stupid to be able to spell correctly. Well done you for pointing it out Whiskeryron but you are actually too late for that. It has been pointed out many times before both on here and elsewhere.
And where I agree I do sometimes come across a bit garbled, well that is because I try to get it all out in one go.
Zac There are many Remainers that call leavers little englanders. Racist bigots. Dullards. Uneducated. Far right. When the vast majority are anything but. In much the same way the vast majority of Remainers aren't far leftist activists determined to thwart democracy. Always putting the UK down. Don't feel or regard themselves superior or smug. But the names get brandies around.
At what point is the cost too high to stay in the common market and customs union. The point of unpalatableness. When you didn't understand the question Zac I asked the same thing to a couple of other people and they knew what it meant and were able to give a reply. In fact within the theme of the topic and reading the posts they found it understandable and as I know from your posts you are not stupid I can but assume you were being purposely obtuse and trying make my comments less important than yours and help with your point!
You know what. I would like to think there was someone bright enough within the government that could do the sums to see when what is on offer is too high a price to pay. Sovereignty is for me non negotiable. But when the figure for entry into the single market or customs union is higher than the return is when the negotiators should have the guts to say actually no we don't want to join on those terms. In fact everyone should. Why would you want to pay more? You might just as well start a business buying widgets for £1 and selling them for 90p.The terms should be that we make a return, or profit from day one. Why should it be any other way?
And where I agree I do sometimes come across a bit garbled, well that is because I try to get it all out in one go.
Zac There are many Remainers that call leavers little englanders. Racist bigots. Dullards. Uneducated. Far right. When the vast majority are anything but. In much the same way the vast majority of Remainers aren't far leftist activists determined to thwart democracy. Always putting the UK down. Don't feel or regard themselves superior or smug. But the names get brandies around.
At what point is the cost too high to stay in the common market and customs union. The point of unpalatableness. When you didn't understand the question Zac I asked the same thing to a couple of other people and they knew what it meant and were able to give a reply. In fact within the theme of the topic and reading the posts they found it understandable and as I know from your posts you are not stupid I can but assume you were being purposely obtuse and trying make my comments less important than yours and help with your point!
You know what. I would like to think there was someone bright enough within the government that could do the sums to see when what is on offer is too high a price to pay. Sovereignty is for me non negotiable. But when the figure for entry into the single market or customs union is higher than the return is when the negotiators should have the guts to say actually no we don't want to join on those terms. In fact everyone should. Why would you want to pay more? You might just as well start a business buying widgets for £1 and selling them for 90p.The terms should be that we make a return, or profit from day one. Why should it be any other way?
I genuinely didn’t know what you meant but thanks for the clarification. Calculating where the pain of leaving the EU outweighs the benefits (I think that’s what you mean) is, I would say, impossible. I suppose most remain voters felt no price was worth it.
Still waiting for examples where remain voters to said it was all about immigration and leave voters are racists.
Still waiting for examples where remain voters to said it was all about immigration and leave voters are racists.
Why do folk still push the idea that leaving isn't easy ? It clearly is. The more difficult issue is getting decent post-leaving deals with a power group that simply wishes to retain control of all members and make things as difficult as they can for the leaver, even if it means cutting off their nose to spite their face.
I think we need to recall that, incredible as it may seem, many countries outside the EU trade perfectly well and often very successfully with countries within it, often with no trade deal whatsoever. The attitude of many Remainers seems to be that trade with the EU will cease as soon as we leave (unless we remain in the Single Market and/or the Customs Union) and we will only survive if we can replace that trade with more from elsewhere. Of course that is errant nonsense.
Of course the NS would extol the virtues of the Customs Union. I would expect nothing less from that esteemed organ. However, it overlooks the fact the trade arrangements it facilitates are in the best interests of no country in particular but must accommodate the needs of 28 very disparate nations.
Of course the NS would extol the virtues of the Customs Union. I would expect nothing less from that esteemed organ. However, it overlooks the fact the trade arrangements it facilitates are in the best interests of no country in particular but must accommodate the needs of 28 very disparate nations.
There isn't going to be a clean, amicable exit as far as I can see. It never was a realistic possibility i.m.o., which is why I have been screaming for us to get a fall-back W.T.O. position for months and months.
Some EU nations are (at last) starting to press their points of not wanting to lose trade relations with us - but Barnier & co. are stuck in their own hard shells.
What is really, really hard for me to accept is that so many Britons are not prepared to accept the result of the referendum and are trying to overturn it. This is not the country I grew up in, where you swallowed your disappointment at being overruled and got on with it. I really feel that all the 'truths' that were my bedrock have been shattered.
Some EU nations are (at last) starting to press their points of not wanting to lose trade relations with us - but Barnier & co. are stuck in their own hard shells.
What is really, really hard for me to accept is that so many Britons are not prepared to accept the result of the referendum and are trying to overturn it. This is not the country I grew up in, where you swallowed your disappointment at being overruled and got on with it. I really feel that all the 'truths' that were my bedrock have been shattered.
"This remainer is under no illusion the trade will still continue with Europe. He’s also aware that trade deals take years to set up."
"...many countries outside the EU trade perfectly well and often very successfully with countries within it, often with no trade deal whatsoever."
The USA is one of the UK's largest trading partners. It does not have, never has had, and is unlikely to have (in the near future anyway) a trading agreement with the UK. (Of course such a deal is impossible at the moment as the UK has forfeited its right to strike its own agreement and the EU is unlikely to strike one any time soon). But nonetheless trade, of considerable value, takes place between us.
Trade takes place despite politicians, not because of them and so it will with Europe when we leave the EU.
"...many countries outside the EU trade perfectly well and often very successfully with countries within it, often with no trade deal whatsoever."
The USA is one of the UK's largest trading partners. It does not have, never has had, and is unlikely to have (in the near future anyway) a trading agreement with the UK. (Of course such a deal is impossible at the moment as the UK has forfeited its right to strike its own agreement and the EU is unlikely to strike one any time soon). But nonetheless trade, of considerable value, takes place between us.
Trade takes place despite politicians, not because of them and so it will with Europe when we leave the EU.
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