Listener Crossword No. 4568 Howsat! By Skylark

[emcee]

Not a bad puzzle although some of the 3 letter entries made it difficult to ascertain the extra letter. Initially I had a perfectly acceptable alternative answer for 29ac.

Not my kind of theme at all.

Thanks, Skylark.

[perseverer]

The thematic work is not of a genre (if I can use that term) which has ever appealed to me but that's hardly Skylark's fault. Quite an achievement to build quite so many associated words into the grid.
I also had trouble figuring out extra letters, in several cases having to work back once I realised (thanks to Google) what the theme was.

[Hagen]

I nearly missed this as I thought it would be a numerical this week!

A theme I admire rather than love, neatly implemented for the most part though I'd have thought some appropriately tinted highlighting could have added an extra stage to what was a straightforward puzzle.

The clues were good but I take exception to 4 down. Unless I've misparsed this - and please correct me if I have - this involves the kind of "libertarian" approach to cryptic grammar that gets past the Guardian editor but shouldn't appear in a Listener. One of the joys of Listeners is that we can expect rigorous clueing, so I hope this is an oversight rather than a sign of things to come.

[IainGrace]

Hagen, in the ordinary course of events the numericals appear on the last Saturday of February, May, August and November. We don’t do them.

[Hagen]

I thought the numericals appeared on the penultimate Saturday of those months (the last two were May 18 and Feb 15). In any case next week is the penultimate Saturday of the month, so clearly I can't count. Which is why I never bother with the number puzzles either!

[perseverer]

....... I think it is normally the penultimate Saturday - so next week if things go to form

[IainGrace]

Hagen, numericals are stated at listener.com as normally appearing in the last week of the month but clearly you have evidence to the contrary. Anyway we’ll soon find out.

[Hagen]

I've had a quick look at the Times archive and and 2011 appears the year the numericals moved from the last to the penultimate (or middle, occasionally) weekend. I'm guessing the Listener site hasn't updated? Not that it's important; it only takes a minute to sign in and check.

Although I don't do numericals I have no objection to their appearance, as others obviously enjoy them. I just wish they appeared at Christmas, New Year, Easter and another week when I can happily go without a Listener crossword!

[Philoctetes]

A fairly smooth progress. Though I am not an aficionado of the creation, I found it thanks to one element of the hint. As so often, I wonder how anyone other than a follower would find the item without Google.

[olichant]

Some funny surface readings, I thought - maybe that’s just me. But enjoyable overall.

[Scorpius]

Hagen, it took me a while to see parse 4d but I think the clue is sound, though it takes a form that I'm not mad keen on where extra letters are concerned. Presumably your critiicism concerns the plural verb, but as there are two subjects that are notionally contained, the plural verb is justified. In such cases I think it's permissible to regard two items as a plurality or as a single unit.

[Hagen]

Thanks, Scorpius. I'd parsed it as only one element being contained, which led to something analogous to the Ximenes example of "I am in the plot" = PLAIN. No doubt you're right and both elements are, as you aptly put it, notionally contained, but like you I'm not keen on containers where one end is completely missing. Plural verbs for multiple fodder are something of a moot point. My own view FWIW is that it's arguably correct but also inelegant to follow "X Y" or X,Y" with a plural verb, as it doesn't make much sense as English (you wouldn't say "birds, insects fly" for example). The issue can be resolved with a conjunction like "and" between the elements.

I withdraw my objection of unsoundness but it's still not the best clue I've seen.

I seem to be dominating this thread so I hope there will be some more contributions from the good folk who hang around here!

[Granama1]

Hello. Relatively new to The Listener and totally new on here. Have bludgeoned my way through this to the point where I have everything bar 1 letter. 29 across I have the 2nd and 3rd letters and the absence of the first is disturbingly irritating! Help please! Oh..I have an 'x' in 8 down, does that sound right? I think it fits the theme but struggle to parse it. Thanks.

[Hagen]

I'm sure you're all sick of me by now, but welcome to the forum, Granama1. If you're new you probably aren't aware that unlike the other crossword threads on AB, you're unlikely to receive answers or hints to Listener puzzles. This may seem strange and it's caused some spectacular arguments in the past, but it's the preferred way of doing things among all (I think) of the current posters. There is a site called crosswordsolver.org which has a forum where such a tradition doesn't exist, and you're more likely to find an answer there. Still, I hope you'll stay with us for discussions of a general nature about future puzzles.

[icynorth]

One of those where if you can’t fully parse a clue, you’re probably wrong. Fortunately I’m only foxed by 1D, and I can’t imagine anything else which would fit there. I’m sure it will hit me soon.

Tricky challenge, but a fine achievement - thanks, Skylark!

[NickorWan]

I enjoyed solving the puzzle and I enjoyed revisiting the theme. I would have liked to have seen a bit of an endgame in the grid, but a nice enough debut, thanks.

Re 4d, I’m with Hagen and Scorpius and not a fan of indicators in a clue that are only there to support the extra letter.

[Granama1]

Ok.Thanks. Seems an odd approach on a site called Answerbank. Hey ho. Have fun. Bye.

[Askival]

I was very much lulled into a false sense of security with this one - a familiar gimmick that applies to every clue, with no entries to be manipulated prior to solving... How hard could it be? Really quite hard, as it turns out. Had to call upon a lot of 'Words I Only Know From Solving The Listener' (2d, 23d, 36d), but it is nice when you do recall them.

The general category into which the theme falls is well-deserving of Listener treatment. This particular theme has been one on my list for a while now, so consider me inspired to do something about it at last!

Thanks Skylark.