Does 'Proportional Response' (?) In Gaza Really Apply.

[Khandro]

https://www.spectator.com.au/2024/03/netanyahus-dilemma/

[Buenchico]

Your link's blocked by a paywall, Khandro.

[davebro3]

I don't think it's a case of - they did that so we'll do this plus a bit. Hamas started a war & Israel seems determined to win that war by wiping out Hamas in Gaza. 

[Khandro]

Chris, sorry this should work;

https://archive.is/EskcK

My question is; What is a 'proportional response' to someone who is dedicated to killing you?

[Old_Geezer]

That link also needs a subscription.

A 'proportional response' to someone who is dedicated to killing you might be to stay away from them, or maybe do unto them what they plan for you, but do it first; but to have serious consideration/debate before opting to take out many in the local area in the hope of getting those you want.

[Untitled]

every civilian killed by the IDF will strengthen Hamas in the long run because every civilian casualty will generate at least one person hellbent on revenge against the perpetrator. by far the majority of casualties inflicted by the IDF have been civilians. 

this brutal mass murdering approach they have chosen is not going to wipe out hamas for that reason. 

the root cause of this problem is Israel's occupation of gaza and its hideous treatment of the people who live there. the first step toward ending the problem is to bring that situation to an end... that's the only way out. the government needs to choose between peace or its colonial project in gaza and the west bank and the golan heights. it cannot have both. 

[davebro3]

I'm not big on history but was Israel really occupying Gaza before Oct 7?

I thought Hamas was in charge there and there was a wall and an exclusion zone to keep the area separate from Israel.

[retrocop]

I'm sure,davebro3, that if Israel occupied Gaza prior to Oct 7th, they wouldn't have been firing rockets from Gaza over the border (wall) into their own territory. Those rockets seem to have abated now !!

[ToraToraTora]

untitled: "every civilian killed by the IDF will strengthen Hamas in the long run" so what should Israel have done? Invite them round for a frank discussion?

[Khandro]

Sorry, I can't get a link, but here's an extract from the article:

...........'Let me reiterate, this is not a punitive expedition. Israel is fighting for its survival, and it is entitled to do so to the maximum extent possible under the rules of war. Those rules do not specify an acceptable limit of civilian casualties. They say that purely civilian areas, such as hospitals and residential areas are protected, but that any military objective, even one which contains civilians, may be targeted. That said, the attacking force would have to satisfy itself, even be able to convince an international tribunal, that the military gain from any individual attack justified the associated casualties. For example, that the target could not simply be bypassed and isolated.

That degree of discretion becomes problematic when the enemy deliberately shields its personnel and weapons within the civilian infrastructure, and one of its acknowledged strategies is to facilitate maximum civilian casualties in order to alienate support for its adversary; precisely what is happening.

During World War II, the West was also fighting for its survival. During that war, some 50 to 70 million people were killed, most of them civilians. Poland alone lost, reportedly, about 5.5 million civilians. The USSR lost somewhere between 5 and 10 million. Germany lost 1.5 to 3 million. Japan did well. It only lost some 800,000. That victory took six years. Israel has been fighting for its existence for 75 years.   And Arab deaths over this time pale into insignificance compared to the carnage of the second world war.

But, given that in all likelihood he no longer has a political career to worry about, Netanyahu is probably best placed to handle the opprobrium that is currently unleashed upon him. He will do what is necessary. And the Israelis can thank God for that.' ............

[Untitled]

"I'm not big on history but was Israel really occupying Gaza before Oct 7?"

yes it was. 

and no retro the occupation did not stop the rockets. 

[retrocop]

Well the rockets are not coming frpom Gaza now!

I recently watched an interview with a very elderly Israeli grandmother who was helped with translation by her daughter.

On Oct 7th she was grabbed by these Hamas heroes in Israel and thrown aside a motorcycle where she was taken into Gaza. These  'heroes', or some on here would call them freedom fighters, then paraded their trophy in front of cheering and baying Palestinians. Are these the same innocent,ordinary Palestinians I keep hearing mentioned or are there more Hamas than we thought?

[Untitled]

should we just kill them all then retro because of how this woman was treated? that seems to be the israeli preference. i would warn though that israel has not always behaved like the good guys through its history so collective punishment might not be the best precedent to set. 

[Khandro]

As I have been saying for weeks; there is no need for any more deaths at all, Hamas has only to surrender, as the Germans & Japanese finally had to. They know they are doomed and by continuing it is they who are putting further lives at risk.

[davebro3]

Before seperate "disabled access" loos became the norm I used to take my wheelchair- bound mum into the ladies loo. Just had to be done.

[davebro3]

oops - wrong thread!

[Peter Pedant]

 Are these the same innocent,ordinary Palestinians I keep hearing mentioned 

yup and there are MILLIONS of them retro

( and the 2000 dead children, are ANY  of them innocent? no of course not, none - even the three year olds....)

[Peter Pedant]

Those rules do not specify an acceptable limit of civilian casualties.

well thank god for that - so it is OK to kill 30 000 plus or minus a few aid workers

thanks for that - I was worried it was a war crime

[Khandro]

.....Israelis rightly point out that Hamas fighters sheltering behind civilians is a clear violation of the laws of war. So is taking hostages. So is building tunnels under churches and mosques. So is firing rockets from hospitals. What is Israel supposed to do: just let that happen? Instead, it is reacting in the only way possible, by doing everything it can to comply with international law itself, and accepting the losses that come with bitter urban fighting in which Hamas is quite happy for civilians to be casualties.

The other problem with this approach is that it doesn’t actually offer a solution. A ceasefire would leave Hamas in being, able to reconstitute itself, and with no incentive to release hostages. There would be little real chance of moving on to reconstruction and the installation of some minimally capable, non-destructive administration in Gaza. And Israel’s enemies, notably Iran, would draw the conclusion that, in a crisis, Israel would be allowed to hit back, but would always be stopped by the West from fighting to a finish. 

We can’t allow this to happen. It’s a difficult case to make just at the moment, especially after the sad and distressing airstrike on World Central Kitchen aid workers, but Israel must not just be allowed, but enabled, to win this war. That’s because it’s in our own national interest that it does so. Our rivals around the world see international relations not in terms of law but of power. If Western countries don’t have the stomach to face down our enemies – and Islamist extremism, in the form of Hamas or anything else, is definitely our enemy – others will calibrate their actions accordingly.... 

Extract from an article by Lord Daid Frost in today's Telegraph

[10ClarionSt]

For all those words, I don't think Israel cares at all about world reaction. I don't think the IDF cares about the hostages. Remember the old Israeli slogan, every Israeli citizen is a front line soldier? I honestly believe that the IDF won't stop till they've cleared Gaza of everyone, no matter who is there. The hostages are expendable and either way, will be regarded as heroes at the end of this conflict. Hamas started this and Hamas will pay the price. Gaza will be razed to the ground and all of it's occupants eliminated.

[Khandro]

^^ So, Netanyahu = Genghis Khan ?   🙄