Listener Crossword 4024 - An Additional Symmetry by Waterloo

[Apache4D]

After last weeks colourful and interesting diversion (think my times tables are in much better fettle now!), thought I would start this weeks thread off, if I may.

This certainly looks like an interesting concept (...90 degree rotational symmetry...) and for me very spooky as I was working on an idea like this myself.

However, good luck to all and happy solving!!!

(Waterloo = Walterloo - l, hmmmm?!?)

[cruciverbali]

Thanks Apache. Mr. Gribble has certainly been a prolific contributor to the Listener series over the years, first outing in 1963 and most recent in December 2007.

[starwalker]

Thanks Apache. For those who thought that last week's offering was too easy, this may provide more of a challenge - and no coloured pens required !

[easterfool]

90 degree symmetry should make it fairly straightforward to find some of the bars and so sort out the pattern - but who knows what tricks are lying in wait. I have always found Waterloo's clues reasonably easy to solve so far. Pride before a fall perhaps. Agree re the coloured pens - we seem to have been highlighting a lot recently.

[AHearer]

No coloured pens, but lots of hard work for the rubber. I was wrongfooted for a while, and had to smile when I saw what I hadn't thought of. With the grid full I'm going to take a break and take a LOT of time checking the bars before sealing my envelope.

[cruciverbali]

I always scan a copy for that very reason - if anyone missed theirs this morning let me know ([email protected]) and I'll forward one.

[starwalker]

Quite agree, AHearer. The devil of this one is going to be in the detail of bar and number locations after the grid has been filled. Easy to make a silly mistake.

[x_word_fan]

Quiet on this thread. Am I the only one struggling? Do I gather I am going about this in the wrong way, trying (unsuccessfully) to sort out the bars & numbers first? I cannot see the way forward. Any chance of a hint ?

[emcee]

Another puzzle with significant initial cold-solving and some tricky clues... at last, I'm making some progress with many of the numbers now in the grid although it's not easy! However, I still have about half of the clues unsolved.

[midazolam]

all i can say x_word_fan is that if you take on creating the grid first, then not all is as straightforward as one might have first thought.

i did use a crossword creating program after getting several clues by cold solving. once the catch is found it is fairly straightforward to finish.

nice twist Waterloo and i hope you don't catch me out with these twisted numbers

[Walterloo]

Apache4D - Hmmmm indeed! Fantastically brilliant puzzle. I forgot I did this one. Compiled it whilst waiting for my toast one morning...
Only joking. I wish I was as clever as my near namesake to make such a solid little puzzle as this one. I have a completed grid, after a long struggle all day, making several wrong turns etc. I've put it down now and I'm going to put the numbers in their correct orientations tomorrow with a fresh head. Ahearer and starwalker are wise to check and recheck.

[Mysterons]

Yes, a nice grid with very fair clues and plenty of help with the four triply-unched lights - a shame we have to enter those bars and fiddly numbers !

[emcee]

Finished (phew)

I agree, the clues were very fair yet more difficult than Waterloo's norm. Plenty of double-checking the numbers and bars now. I wouldn't like to be in John Green's shoes!!!

[perseverer]

Grid completed last night. Once you manage to get the grid going, it does fill in fairly easily, especially with the help of Chambers searcing on-line. Some good clues, one or two bits of word play still to clarify in my own mind.

Now to the somewhat tedious, and dare I say pointless task of checking bars and clue numbers. If you complete the grid correctly, you have figured out what directions answers run.

I can only add to others in wishing Mr Green good luck. He must be hoping for a low entry this week.

[Cruncher]

I think you lot are jolly clever. I've cold-solved about 20 clues but can't fit them together at all yet so think this one is going to be a long plod.

Which one of us asked for a stinker....?

[robinruth]

Cruncher, keep going! Once you have the grid sussed out - with a bit of twisted thinking, the clues fit in. I've spent hours on the grid but finally got there with a real sense of satisfaction. Some clues are still to solve but the bars are no problem. I simply dread the final task of working out which way (round and up) to put in the numbers.

[Speravi]

I've also solved 20 clues, including 1ac, 2dn, 6ac, 18dn, 31ac, 19dn, 36ac, 35dn and seen some additional symmetry there, but as for the construction of the grid, I'm baffled.

It's partly psychological, I know: because of past experience, I have little confidence that my understanding of symmetry chimes with that of anyone else. (If I say no more, I appear to be an idiot, if I mention my distinction in my MMath, I appear arrogant - and an idiot).

[robinruth]

Seems to me, Speravi, that you have found the information you need but not drawn the obvious conclusion (which needs my English degree (arrogance) and a bit of thought about words - not the logic of a math degree.
I am hopeless with symmetry but have understood that 90 degree rotational symmetry means that the pattern of slots words fit into, and the bars, will look the same, whichever of the four sides you look from. I think I spent about five hours trying to make some of the clues you named (like 2d. 18d. 19d) fit in, then decided they were 'surplus' as there were too many clues to the grid. Then I suddenly smiled - like AHearer in the fourth posting.
I promise to stay quiet now - have just finished and think this was dreadfully difficult.

[Mysterons]

You may have already done so Speravi (in which case apologies), but start by considering the position of the 4 symmetrical 4-letter across lights - they can only be in one place from the start, and once you have 5 and 22 in particular there are helpful letters to intersect with 9 and 28 down. Keep at it, and good luck !

[Speravi]

Many thanks for the helpful and encouraging posts by Robinruth and Mysterons: I feel inspired to take another look at it right now!

[Cruncher]

Nearly there now. Thanks for the encouragement!!