Listener 4054- The Square Root of 576 by Leo

[Philoctetes]

Good solid crossword this week. No colouring, no coding, no bells.

[Mysterons]

I'm assuming the title answers the formula X = A minus B, where A is the primary constant (3 times the number initially in the central cell) and B is the logorithmic constant for the same 3x3 square (21) There is a fuller explanation at the foot of this link:

http://www.russianaz.org/news/2008/Apr_Russian_AlphaMagic_Square.html

[Eril]

Still not sure exactly what you are referring to Midazolam. Are you saying that there are alternative solutions to the 'extra material'? Or is it something more fiendish?

[Eril]

...and Cruncher - how come you started this Friday night in the pub? Real ale might take one back to the good old days, but can it take you forward too?

[Mysterons]

Eril, there is a subscription service which gives access to various Times puzzles online, including The Listener on a Friday evening - particularly useful for those who live abroad or in the pub I understand:

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/games_and_puzzles/crossword/

[midazolam]

I was only stating, which I feel adds greatly to Leo's grid construction, that if you couldn't work out the final denouement (unfortunately given away by Mysterons link above), guesswork would only give a 25% chance of getting it right. If Leo hadn't been so devious you could guess at it without fully understanding every detail. I originally thought this was the case in my first posting only to realise not once but twice.

In other words eril - no correct alternative solution but 3 other satisfying incorrect solutions

[Mysterons]

Any square has 8 orientations (4 pairs of mirror images), so surely 'guesswork' could lead to far more than 4 possibilities ?

[midazolam]

Mysterons you are missing my point regarding the possible entries of the blank spaces in terms of letters making real words in the grid. There are another 3 possibilities of "numbers" when converted to letters that make up real words in the final grid. Obviously incorrect when solving the end game

[Mysterons]

Midazolam , I'm going to take your word for it, because I still don't understand what you mean !

[cluelessJoe]

Hi Midazolam - I understand what you mean, though I appreciate it is difficult to be subtle and yet explain it to the wider audience.
In fact Mysterons, it is you I have problems in following ... maybe I am being a bit slow here - and yes, I had already seen the page whose link you posted. IIt just does not quite work for me .. sure, I can also do some simple maths which yields a number: Fine, X=A-B ... but just why should A be a factor of 3 times the central number (same question for B). There is nothing to suggest to the solver that he should be multiplying any particular square by 3. Had you maybe suggested that all the row/column totals might be significant numbers in their own right, I just might have been convinced to examine the difference and come up with a fitting answer - but where does this 3x multiple enter the reckoning?.
And just where does the square / square root in the title have any relevance?

[Cruncher]

I personally felt that Mysterons' post was a tad over-enthusiastic - a little too much information offered gratuitously too soon. From the subsequent exchange between midazolam and Mysterons I'm not sure that Mysterons has yet figured out what is going on with this puzzle. Be that as it may I would like to ask for a little restraint on these threads. There were some nice PDMs with this one and I, for one, found myself on a little voyage of intellectual discovery. I was glad that I didn't dip into the thread till I'd finished it

[failedagain]

This is why the "Listenerites" you're all so snippy about have agreed not to mention live puzzles: Someone says something apparently innocuous, someone else doesn't understand, the first person elucidates and before you know it the puzzle is spoiled. Mysterons has a history of blurting out the answers without any concern for people who are still trying to work things out for themselves. The best strategy is to ignore him.

[Clamzy]

Failed again - the people trying to work out things for themselves don't have to read these threads. Like cruncher I tend to come in later when I've finished the puzzle.
I believe that midazolam was right first time. It was hinted in the preamble that we were looking for a "satisfying" grid i.e., real words. Using a 'letter choice' of the type I was banging on about last week, the first out of the bag was the correct one and I for one didn't realise there were other options. I'll wager Leo's deviousness was lost on most solvers.

Clamzy

[Mysterons]

It would certainly have have been lost on me Clamzy if midazolam hadn't spotted the other three numbers - certainly a very clever feat of construction.

cJ, I had assumed that the title was a hint to the alphanumeric code, X (the unknown) being the square root of 576 - it seems appropriate for Leo to use another reference to a square, and significant that the magic sums of the two 3x3 squares (equal to 3 x the central number) differ by X.

[Razor Boy]

Nobody has explained what any of this has to do with "adjusting the initial grid" ...

[Cruncher]

razor Boy - I wondered about the wording of the preamble to. The obvious adjustment is to fill in the empty cells but I did have a nasty feeling that there was something yet more devious required. Hopefully not - mine's on its way to Mr Green

[emcee]

Phew... a real stinker of a PDM at the end!

I wasn't overly happy with 3d. Does anyone else think "found in Japanese" is a weak definition?

[jamesah]

Everyone seems to have found this pretty easy but I am still confused. I can see that there are 4 possible solutions, I've got one m--- s---- from the extra information but (a) I don't see its relevance and (b) where is the first m---- s----?? Any hints would be much appreciated as I expect that I am missing something simple. I presume that there is no change to the actual grid at the end?

[Cruncher]

jamesah - the extra information in the clues allows you to derive one set of solutions. The extraneous letters give you a hint as to how to derive a second set of solutions from the first set

[Clamzy]

Jamesah - Start at the beginning and read all the posts in this thread particularly Mysterons - it's all there.

[jamesah]

Now I see!! Many thanks.