Listener Crossword 4055 fiDlEDE by Waterloo

[starwalker]

A fairly typical Waterloo offering with a mix of simple, difficult and amusing clues. The problem is not so much in solving them, but getting the grid entry correct. Another one I think that would be of interest to newcomers, though less easy than some recently.

As a footnote, I see that the editors have allowed several options for the answer in 4052 "Question" by Aedites. Do I detect a slip-up in the proof-reading ?

[midazolam]

i have only just started this one, but by the looks of it there will be no thematic give-away postings here this week. I doubt it (from what you say), but it would be nice for those capital letters to spell something out.

I really wanted to add a comment about 4052 as well. I wonder if the editors looked at our discussion when choosing to allow church, campanile, belfry and bell tower as we discussed all those as potential options. Can anyone enlighten me regarding why the order should have ended with gfedc and not started with gfedc or any other combination? Does a change-ringing format have to have an identical pairing column like the solution of 4052? It seems that this required more research than a trip to library, which is what they instruct in their setting criteria. Even with the internet, there is little info stating how to start or end the pattern.

Anyway, back to 4055

[midazolam]

My thoughts confirmed, and having solved Waterloo's other recent efforts, there is never a thematic denouement awaiting at the end. I am impressed that every entry contains a thematic alteration with some good clues, but a shame it is an asymmetrical grid and has left me wanting more.

[AHearer]

I agree that this was pretty straightforward, with good clues. I too felt a little let down that there was no final denouement; I hadn't noticed that this was common for Waterloo's puzzles.

[turnerjmw]

Fair points, all, but I stil thought this was good fun and found the theme enjoyable. Enough easier clues to give newcomers a chance to get into the puzzle, too, as starwalker says.

[cluelessJoe]

Yes, a little disappointing that there wasn't a sting in the tail. I'd been hopeful of something more - particularly given the asymmetry - so even that aspect became a let down for the tidy-minded. Never mind, a nice one for the novice and of course it leaves a lot of the weekend for more constructive pursuits. The garden beckons!

[daagg]

In answer to midazolam\'s question about change ringing, it is indeed normal to start and finish with \"rounds\", but this cannot normally be achieved in such a short section, so I guess that finishing in rounds is more satisfying than starting there. Normally bells are given numbers, but I think the letters are the musical notes, so gfedc is part of the descending c major scale - called \"rounds\". If you listen to church bells, you should hear this pattern at the start and end of every piece of ringing. The lightest bell (g here) is called the treble, and normally follows a simpler pattern than the other bells. In this puzzle, it twice moves from first to last position and back again. Thus, each of the two column sections is a \"lead\". Normally, all leads would show the same pattern, but with the heavier bells permuted. Is suspect that this proved a bit difficult, so Aedites used two different patterns (or \"methods\").

I hope this hasn\'t bored you all (I\'ve tried to be brief!). However, I\'ve just finished my first ever words Listener (having done the number ones for ages) so I\'m feeling a bit chuffed.

[midazolam]

thanks and well done daagg for finishing your first letter based listener. It can only go onwards and upwards from here. It is also good to see a new contributor to these threads.

[robinruth]

Yes, daagg (or dAG :)) I share that great feeling, and I don't feel that it was so easy, as there was lots of wordplay to decipher. I agree about the disappointing lack of a felled cherry tree at the end or a set of bells (thanks for the fascinating clarification) but did really appreciate the great clarity of the definitions which were word for word Chambers, removing any remaining doubts.

[alice50]

A typically enjoyable Waterloo puzzle - not all Listeners have to have surprise endings! Can someone explain 16ac to me?

[cluelessJoe]

Alice .. the first two letters for your answer=shut. Do is used in the sense of the musical note except what you need to make this bit of wordplay work is a 2 letter equivalent ...
FUll clue definition is 'as well'

[twencelas]

I must agree, a very pleasant and precise puzzle, unfortunatley with no great work of art revealed at the end.

If anyone is looking for a more humourous option, try this week's inquisitor by LODA. Its got a deliberate ambiguous end game. Telegraph readers will have a bigger problem than most.

[twencelas]

Apologies meant by LATO

[cruciverbali]

.............. or why not take a look at today\'s Azed crossword ?

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Observer/documents/2009/10/06/Azed1950.pdf

[daagg]

Sorry to still be discussing bell ringing, but I've just noticed that rounds would be the row before the first row in the left column. Aedites has therefore chosen two methods which are inverses of each other, to start and end in rounds. The correct way to look at this is to join the bottom of the right column to the top of the left.

I'm sure I have 31dn correct, but I don't understand the wordplay - any hints anyone?

[perseverer]

Daagg - very often, as in this case, the name of a country indicates its International Vehicle Registration letters. I hope this is enough of a hint.

More fun for Mr Green checking these entries, and I can\'t get a Bay City Rollers song out of my head!!

[Clamzy]

Dagg - Tartarus = hell; Burundi IVR = ru. Subtract

[Clamzy]

That is RU divided so subtract only the U.

[turnerjmw]

I think you subtract both, Clamzy, but in different places in the word, and thus divided

[daagg]

Ahh, I see. Another thing to tuck away for future reference. Thank you all.

[Clamzy]

Yes you are correct as always jmw.