Listener 4057 Inside, by Hypnos

[robinruth]

Where is everybody? Or are you finding the wordplay as difficult as I did. This was a nice, easy grid fill and the alternatives and associatives were fun, but oh dear, did I struggle with the endgame! Perhaps it was so easy for you experts that you are not bothering to appear this week?

[midazolam]

Actually this discussion brings up a question that i have wondered about for some time. When does an abbreviation, linked via its full word(s), become allowed to be clued via a synonym. A popular example, which came up recently in a listener, would be OS being clued as large, extra large or exceptionally large, but the true full meaning is outsize. I am sure there are many others.

Oh, and while on the subject of clothes sizes, S,M,L,XL are commonly used abbrevations but only XL and M are in chambers....why?

[daagg]

Sorry - two more questions. Am I supposed to reinsert the letters which I have removed from the thematic clues to generate the extra answers? Do the extra answers have to have the stated lengths? I hope I'm not asking for too much help.

[midazolam]

no daagg, the extra letters are an anagram which is associated with the common theme word and as mentioned you do not necessarily need to work out all of them to finish the crossword

[twoshortplan]

Dear Mr J M W Turner,
Thank you for the copy of the crossword.
You have saved my marriage. And may I say I am great admire of your paintings as well.

regards

David

[daagg]

The light has begun to dawn - it was a very satisfying ah-hah moment. I now have the theme, the anagram and the accessory sorted, but I still need to find the early variant and the alternative. I think they can wait until tomorrow. Thank you for your gentle nudges.

[Scorpius]

Midazolam, in answer to your question I'd say that very common abbreviations (ie common in crosswords) can be, and are, clued by synonyms. L, for example, meaning 'learner' is frequently clued by a synonym, as indeed it is in this puzzle. On the other hand I don't think the editors would permit D for Director or daughter to be clued as 'manager' or 'female offspring'. There's no precise logic to dictate what is or is not allowed; it's just a matter of convention and fairness.
I don't know the answer to your second question. It's always puzzled me that L and S do not appear as 'large' and 'small' in Chambers. It would expand the cluing possibilities if they were.

[Mysterons]

daag - to bungle = to tinker

'grouse' is Australian colloquial for very good

[bobbycollins]

Enjoyable puzzle, but what was the point of the ridiculous preamble?

[daagg]

I had thought of "grouse" but didn't think to look it up - has Wellington moved a few hundred miles? I've found a 5-letter word which I think matches, but I was expecting it to be placed a bit better with respect to the accessory, and to have a different shape. Are there any rules/conventions about how words can be hidden in grids?

[Cruncher]

Not over the final wall yet and still have one association and one alternative to find - although they don't seem to have much bearing on the final outcome. Have a possible accessory but as it's a clue answer that seems too obvious. And have a regional variant but it's a letter too short. Guess I keep looking.

[7lattens]

Started on Saturday and just finished the pre-amble - now for the clues !!!

[Clamzy]

Great sense of humour 7lattens:-)
I'm in the same boat as cruncher - looking at a completed grid since last Saturday. Wordsearch is not my strongest point. Maybe Mysterons will give us something similar to his car badge hint of last week.

[midazolam]

within the OTT preamble the word "accessory" must be taken literally

[jamesah]

Unless I\'m missing something I can\'t see the point of 3 of the alternative clues and all the associative ones. They might just as well have been included with all the others. I thought for some time that it was the alternative/associated words which had to be entered. The theme can worked out from the anagram of the 7 letters and the \'apt wordplay\'. I shall sit and try to work out the associative answers for my own satisfaction but the solution doesn\'t require them. Quite a bit of tricky wordplay to understand as well.

[Cruncher]

OK - sussed. But I do quite like the STINT in the STOCKS that appears at the bottom of the grid. Ach weel...

[Speravi]

No doubt I'm wrong or harsh (probably both), but I think that the preamble is inaccurate (fortunately it didn't spoil what was for me a thoroughly enjoyable puzzle) . I don't blame Hypnos for the preamble and its failings: these should have been remedied by the editors. There seem to have been a number of such infelicities of late, the most egregious being that for 4054 (where I believe that there are two possible solutions, distinguishable only by whimsy), unless you're persuaded that the church/steeple/tower exercise in clairvoyance was the more spectacular.

I'm grateful to Hypnos and the other setters who are achieving something that is beyond me, I'm also grateful to the editors for performing what must be a largely thankless task: it's because of their customary high standards that I feel acutely that they have nodded recently.

[Mysterons]

Clamzy - not a car badge this week, but how about 'Q' ? (think semaphore).

I do feel that Hypnos missed an opportunity to place the accessory in the variant, in view of the fact that they have the same final letter.

[sunny-dave]

Nearly there - hard slog - irritatingly the jumbled example is eluding me (implying that I've got one of the extra letters wrong) - or is it not a simple anagram ?

[perseverer]

sunny dave - if you have the correct 7 letters, then (for example) the quinapalus word matcher anagram tool will get you the answer - a proper noun. In this case Chambers Word Wizard won't.

[sunny-dave]

Aha - thanks - had forgotten about quinaplus

< and I had got a letter wrong - but easy to check by replacing each one with ? until I got a trip to the ballet >

;-)