Listener 4062 - Letter Squares by Elap

[Philoctetes]

No - i haven't finished it, so get up off the floor. I just wondered what people approaching it thought of the bit in the preamble "so solvers must deduce how many complete cells each answer occupies" (and the attendant mismatches). Without that it looks quite straightforward

[bonefixer]

Struggling with this one - and I usually get the number puzzles without too much difficulty. Have started it twice now and on the second go have solved about a third of the clues and got to a mismatch - 1d doesn't fit with what I have for 7ac, and 12d doesn't work as the III term gives a value too big for what I've put in the grid.

I suspect I've made a basic error somewhere and will have to start all over again. Can someone just confirm for me though that if I've got 23 in box 4 (which I have - not sure if it's right or not), then that means that 4ac is 23xxx and 4d is also 23xxx and you don't just use one of the 2 digits in the down clue.

[Cruncher]

bonefixer - I don't think box 4 has 23 in it. That said you do indeed use both digits in the double digit cells for any answer that goes through that cell - i.e. all answers are entered as a number of complete cell contents. Hope that makes sense. Good luck. It's worth persevering with this one.

[perseverer]

bonefixer - I had the same problem. 4ac has more than one possible answer and the one starting with 23 isn't the correct one

[foxy33]

Hi guys. I too have an ambiguity in the last clue. I have a completed grid and sorted letters but not made much sense of the next step yet. Any hints as to where to go next?

[daagg]

foxy33, if you look at your list of letters, they should indicate what they are. If you then look at your entries in the grid, you should be able to work out how they relate to each other - consider the values which were entered in each cell.

[captaincoma]

Sorry to be blunt but there is no ambiguity; I am willing to be proved wrong!

[x_word_fan]

I'm at the same stage as foxy33 - I can see a sensible step to make to alter the grid and hence resolve the ambiguity but this is in no way that I can see indicated by my 14 letter hint.

[daagg]

The only sense I can make of the preamble is that letters 10 to 14 of the sequence make it clear what form the final submission must take. Without that "word" it would be ambiguous whether to modify the grid or leave it unchanged.

[x_word_fan]

PDM - how clever is that!

[Cruncher]

captaincoma - if you read the earlier posts the ambiguity is described quite clearly. In the bottom right hand corner of the grid one cell could contain either one or two numbers. Both answers are consistent with the instructions. The correct solution becomes apparent when the final step of the puzzle is completed.

[tilbee]

Hi, maybe I miss the satisfaction of doing the mathematical puzzles,unlesss the solution is totally worthwhile. I got started 17,18, 23, ..., and then 9,10,.. but then realised is just an arithematic grind to work out the rest. Given the will and the time I know I can do this, but just doesn't give the satisfacition of the 'normal' ones. Does anyone agree / disagree ? PS: I am a maths graduate but using a calculator is anathema to me - perhaps I am missing something anf there is a more elegant way of solving these ?

[captaincoma]

Cruncher - Thanks for your input but I still think I'm right. Difficult to prove though without giving too much away; maybe in a week or two.

[bonefixer]

I suspect I'm just going to have to wait until the times in 3 weeks to get the last bit. I've solved (at least I think I have) all the numbers in the grid, but I couldn't see any ambiguity - 27ac is fixed for me by 16d which gives the first digit and 12d which gives the last - middle 3 can only go one way as all numbers are 25 or less. Similarly 25ac fixed by 15d, 11d and 12d.

Sorting the letters doesn't help either - first 14 spell something appropriate and I assume must be correct, but the last 11 mean nothing to me.

I've either made another mistake - and I'm not doing it all again! - or I just don't get it.

[bonefixer]

5 minutes more study and I think I have it, although still not convinced. A couple of the final grid entries after modification don't seem to make sense, although I don't have a Chambers dictionary.

[turnerjmw]

Hi bonefixer, re the ambiguity, 12dn doesn't actually fix the last digit of 27ac. They might end in the same number, but 27ac could finish before the final cell

[foxy33]

Thanks Daag. The PDM happened and all was clear after a night's sleep. Must confess to being a bit underwhelmed with the result - although I can't imagine how long this took Elap to create.

[jacinth]

Just finished. I had a real struggle with the last numerical because any mistakes were frequently carried almost to the end. And boy did I make mistakes last time! Fortunately not the case here, presumably the effect of using squares, and the first sentence in the preamble made it relatively straightforward . Very little logical deduction was required for this one, which was perhaps a little disappointing, but I do marvel at how these are compiled - thanks to Elap!

[Ruthrobin]

Finally got there after a mighty struggle. I needed a big nudge even for the last stage and am immensely relieved that we are back to words next week (I'll probably have to eat my words). I do wonder how AHearer managed this by Saturday morning - did he stay up calculating all night or do you superior mathematical brains have intuitive short cuts?

[tenflags]

brings back memories .. struggling with simutaneous equations etc.
very clever Elap .. thank you.

[Clamzy]

Well Ruthrobin there was some discussion on here a while ago about the use of spreadsheets in solving number puzzles and apparently they cut out some of the tedium. As I have no such experience I wouldn't know if it would have helped in this puzzle.
As for me, I use mostly T & E - no, no, not that - Tenacity and Experience:-)